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Imperial Fists Development 2

 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:48 am 
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Whirlwind Formation
-4x Whirlwind

Upgrades Allowed:
Commander
Hunter (Codex Version ie one!)

Wind Support (2 Whirlwinds at 100pts)
OR
Castellans (Grants Ignore Cover to BP at 100pts)

Note you cannot take both Wind Support AND Castellans!

I know it may seem cheap for the upgrades but I would leave them both at 100 and playtest it.

Again I feel that there should be only 1 Hunter per upgrade.

Hyperios still feels useless.

Firebase- Possibly add on one vehicle slot for garrisoning units, like a Tac Formation with a Hunter. Or just make it 10 Stands and count Rhino Chassis vehicles as 2 stands?

Also just make the Minefields by 5cm. Easy to model and nice round number. Also are the minefields just Dangerous terrain? Does seem that cool for a minefield? Shouldn't have a attack or something? D6 MW5+ on crossing formation?


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:27 am 
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I am at work so being short and sweet.

Angel_of_Caliban wrote:
I know it may seem cheap for the upgrades but I would leave them both at 100 and playtest it.


I have some ideas on costings and upgrades. Will wait to hear ideas on how they are to be represented on a list first.

Quote:
Again I feel that there should be only 1 Hunter per upgrade.


*yawn* I see it, just chosing to ignore it ;)

Quote:
Hyperios still feels useless.


meh. It is due for a playtest. maybe if we hit Vassal, you may come back stating that they are overpowered... :D

Quote:
Firebase- Possibly add on one vehicle slot for garrisoning units, like a Tac Formation with a Hunter. Or just make it 10 Stands and count Rhino Chassis vehicles as 2 stands?


Not really necessary as the vehicle can hide behind it. Vehicles in buildings never really sit well with me. That is why I liked the gun emplacements that could take a vehicle.

Quote:
Also just make the Minefields by 5cm. Easy to model and nice round number. Also are the minefields just Dangerous terrain? Does seem that cool for a minefield? Shouldn't have a attack or something? D6 MW5+ on crossing formation?


Just going with established stats for now. It is easier that way.

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Last edited by frogbear on Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:31 am 
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Dobbsy wrote:
Here's another brainstorm


It is now on the thread so good to refer back to if ever needed. For now, I am just happy to accept them as a piece of terrain with a -1 to be hit and 3+ cover save. It is nice and easy and does not need a playtest to work out it's stats. If it is too good, it's points can always increase. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:34 am 
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frogbear wrote:
I have some ideas on costings and upgrades. Will wait to hear ideas on how they are to be represented on a list first

Okay. But what did you think of my options. Base 4 WW and either 2 more or Castellen. Only one formation! =)

Quote:
Again I feel that there should be only 1 Hunter per upgrade.
frogbear wrote:
*yawn* I see it, just chosing to ignore it ;)

You Sir are a Turkey! :D

Quote:
Hyperios still feels useless.
frogbear wrote:
meh. It is due for a playtest. maybe if we hit Vassal, you may come back stating that they are overpowered... :D

Well maybe if I didn't have to play in the middle of night half a sleep I might win! Ha! =P

Quote:
Firebase- Possibly add on one vehicle slot for garrisoning units, like a Tac Formation with a Hunter. Or just make it 10 Stands and count Rhino Chassis vehicles as 2 stands?
frogbear wrote:
Not really necessary as the vehicle can hide behind it. Vehicles in buildings never really sit well with me. That is why I liked the gun emplacements that could take a vehicle.

I was gun emplacemnet built into the Firebase, just one to hold said Hunter!

Quote:
Also just make the Minefields by 5cm. Easy to model and nice round number. Also are the minefields just Dangerous terrain? Does seem that cool for a minefield? Shouldn't have a attack or something? D6 MW5+ on crossing formation?
frogbear wrote:
Just going with established stats for now. It is easier that way.

About the MW attacks or 5cm width? Because I really push for the 5cm width to stop Titans just rolling on through...


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:41 am 
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Whirlwinds

1. The cleanest (and expensive at a base cost) is the 6 unit formation at ~425 points. Upgrade formation to Castellans +125 (just guessing at points here) - no further whirlwind upgrades allowed

2. Cheaper option is 4x Whirlwinds - 300 points. Upgrade 2x Extra Whirlwinds +125 points. Upgrade formation to Castellans +125 (becomes quite messy as needing to upgrade an upgrade)

Although it is a point's sink, option 1 is looking the easiest to implement...

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:43 am 
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frogbear wrote:
Whirlwinds

1. The cleanest (and expensive at a base cost) is the 6 unit formation at ~425 points. Upgrade formation to Castellans +125 (just guessing at points here) - no further whirlwind upgrades allowed

2. Cheaper option is 4x Whirlwinds - 300 points. Upgrade 2x Extra Whirlwinds +125 points. Upgrade formation to Castellans +125 (becomes quite messy as needing to upgrade an upgrade)

Although it is a point's sink, option 1 is looking the easiest to implement...

Option 2 wouldn't be messy if you could only chose one of said option.... O0

And also doesn't make it a point sink...


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:48 am 
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AoC

- As above with the Whirlwinds. I think we have the same idea. Just need to clarify the cost of Ignore Cover on such an awesome barrage
- *gobble gobble*
- I will no doubt chose to play a game at your time 3am. I need a win too you know! :D
- Gun emplacement in a Firebase? Hmm. Not a bad idea. That is one to consider for after playtests then. I just want to get this ready for next week with as little extras as possible. Updated to include vehicles
- I was referring to the MW attack. The 5cm seems fine, just have to get to some terrain pieces to start measuring what was standard for rock terrain etc (older boxed sets) and to read what the rules advise.
- *gobble gobble*

Quote:
Option 2 wouldn't be messy if you could only chose one of said option....


Enunciate! (example please)

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Last edited by frogbear on Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:20 am 
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frogbear wrote:
Angel_of_Caliban wrote:
Option 2 wouldn't be messy if you could only chose one of said option...
Enunciate! (example please)


Whirlwind Formation 300
4x Whirlwind

Upgrades: Commander, Hunter and Whirl Magic.

Whirl Magic - You may add pair Whirlwind to the formation OR Arm the formation with Incendiary Shells adding Ignore Cover to all Whirlwinds armaments for 100 points. Note you cannot take both!

Better example of what I mean? Its just one upgrade option but it could be either, like when you choose the weapons on a Dreadnought. The name needs work I know... ::)


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:03 am 
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That's messy as well.

That is similar to my idea of an upgrade
- add two whirlwinds +x points
- upgrade all whirlwinds, including upgrades, to Castellans +x points

For me, the extra Whirlwinds are now the focus of being iconic. So I would rather go with the all upgraded or nothing to the max potential of 6 (if that is where we are stopping).

If it is all too hard, I am quite happy to just keep them as Whirlwinds for the first few games and not mess around with new units. The only reason I am looking at it is because there seemed to be a dedicated push to have them represented. As far as I am concerned, at an Epic level, Castellans vs Whirlwinds is unnecessary, they both perform the same effect. I am the minority on this one however, so if we do include them, they go up in representation the same as Whirlwinds. Let's not hold back shall we - it is Epic afterall.

I do not like the idea of Commander on anything bar INF or a Dread (and even then because it is acceptable as a Marine standard). It works for other armies, I would prefer it not for this one however.

As for Hunters upgrade having 2 Hunters: It makes sense that a defensive list would/could max out on their anti air potential if they wanted - hence why my one and only addition to this list (it seems) stays for the time being. If people do not like that, then do not take aircraft against the IF, thereby make them waste their points. At the end of the day, they are paying for them which in turn prevents other purchases or upgrades.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:11 am 
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frogbear wrote:
That's messy as well.

As for Hunters


Well then just drop the Castellan option for now and look at it later... I would prefer Formation of 4 with the possibility to upgrade to 6 or 8. Buying them in pairs at either 75 or 100. Lets you chose to run maybe 2 different normal formations or maybe one big one?

I'll table my Hunter Issues till later... ::)


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:13 am 
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I have just changed the Firebase to include vehicles (although it is dangerous terrain)

So there is a small win :) We can both now claim victory!

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Last edited by frogbear on Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:39 am 
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frogbear wrote:
Also, just following up on E&Cs mention of the Hellfire Dreadnought. That is the standard Marine Dreadnought, (twin linked Lascannon and a standard Missile Launcher), correct?

I believe so. The Iconic Dark Angels one, but apparently not? :o


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:48 am 
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Yep, deleted the post after I found the answer :P

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:51 am 
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frogbear wrote:
Yep, deleted the post after I found the answer :P

I know....it wasn't letting me submit my reply at first cuz someone deleted their post! *Shakes Fist*


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:05 am 
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Quote:
Although it is a point's sink, option 1 is looking the easiest to implement...

And it is also the least min-maxable, and easiest to balance.

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