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Imperial Fists Development 2

 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 9:57 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Also the supplement they're going to appear in has them on the defensive.


Well they did actually come in for an attack and then found themselves on the defensive :)

Sneaky Iron Warriors...

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:03 pm 
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And when on the offensive, they wouldn't use the defensive list would they? :)

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:15 pm 
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Sounds much too good to me.


Possibly. But it's a lot better than "Terminators, only better at CC and not shooting". Especially when you consider that most people's Terminators are already used mostly for CC.

Also, it actually, y'know. Makes them particularly good at fighting Titans. Which is, after all, the ostensible point of the formation.

Slightly better CC Terminators isn't much of a unique unit. OTOH, TK Terminators definitely is. Tone down their attacking abilities until it works. One TK attack per unit at 3 or 4+, say.

I think it'd give them a markedly different role than standard Terminators, and thus be a good option.

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The Imperial Fists' biggest Siege was the defence of the Imperial Palace.


Upon checking, the Fists apparently only use siegeworks when forced to. Otherwise, they prefer to avoid them.

Amusingly, this makes me sort of right (in that the Fists should be attacking) but effectively wrong (in that they can't be attacking if they're using siegeworks, because they won't use them unless forced to).

The Iron Warriors love them some siegeworks, even when attacking - so their assault list is gonna look pretty similar to their defense list.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:31 pm 
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Also, it actually, y'know. Makes them particularly good at fighting Titans.

Their current stats have them throwing 2 MW attacks on 3's per unit. That's frankly amazing. They'll take on Reaver Titans and win without effort, and even pose a significant threat to Warlord Titans.

Give them TK attacks, and they'll just be a "win button". They'll kill Warlord class Titans with ease.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:21 am 
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How about leting the player choose a Offensive or Defensive Doctrine at the start of army building? The Doctrine he chooses would determine certain unit options.

For example Offensive Doctrine would allow Siege and Ironclad Dreadnoughts but no Tarantulas. Defensive Doctrine would allow Standard and Hellfire Dreadnought and Tarantulas but no Predators and Land Raiders. Etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:22 am 
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That's functionally no different from writing two army lists, only it's more complicated than doing so.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:26 am 
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I'd say let them keep Predators. The Imperial Fists don't set out to end up in defensive positions - they're forced into them by circumstances. Having Predators along makes sense.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:28 am 
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@E&C: True but it would save space :D

Siegemasters use Siegfried Light Tanks. So Imperial Fists have a use for Predators too.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:36 am 
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I'd say let them keep Predators. The Imperial Fists don't set out to end up in defensive positions - they're forced into them by circumstances. Having Predators along makes sense.

Having them is not in question, it's whether they would pick a defensive battle as being the correct time to deploy them, that is at question.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 1:58 am 
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Having them is not in question, it's whether they would pick a defensive battle as being the correct time to deploy them, that is at question.


Since they generally don't plan to end up in defensive battles, I think they'd likely have relatively little choice.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 2:20 am 
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Happy to let the discussions continue without input at this time.... :P

In the meantime, I am after some clarrifications as I update the list on the run:

Whirlwinds: Where are we going with this as a formation? If a formation of 8 is out of the question, is the preference for 4 + upgrades (to bring it to 6), or buy 6 outright with no whirlwind upgrade purchase? I need to know this as a start as it effects the other idea below.

Castellans: Are people fine with these as an upgrade to Whirlwinds? So upgrade a whirlwind formation to Castellans for +x. Depending on the Whirlwind decision above, I would have to work out the correct upgrade cost. Also, what would people price a formation of 4 Castellans at? 375?

Finally, minefields and Titans. I understand about the walker ability for 2cm, however I do not think thay they should 'step over' minefields should they? Even in the novel Titanicus there was the example of the Warlord walking onto traps set and taking minor impact damage. I am just attempting to understand what was being proposed.

Thanks in advance

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:29 am 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Quote:
I'd say let them keep Predators. The Imperial Fists don't set out to end up in defensive positions - they're forced into them by circumstances. Having Predators along makes sense.

Having them is not in question, it's whether they would pick a defensive battle as being the correct time to deploy them, that is at question.

Sure it would be. Given most modern armies are often called on to defend, I would assume that dug-in predators provide an AT reach for the IF "on the fly".

Personally, FB, you're taking activations numbers into account, I would see the Whirlwinds 4+2 upgrade option as best. People can do as they wish then and not have them cost the earth if they don't require it. You'll already want to add a hunter so...

I'm not sure about the defensive positions in the list though. What does the "firebase" entail? One "bunker-like" building? I think I preferred to just call them bunkers and defensive lines/trenches. Why can't you get all of these things at once if the player wishes?

Unfortunately, from my perspective, the list seems to be straying into an "Epic bland/vanilla" mode. Just chucking a few new units like sentry guns, bigger artillery and a few "firebases" and minefields into the defences, doesn't quite strike me as the "impregnable defenses" concept I always imagined the IF to be.

The list seems to be stuck on whether it's attack or defend. I'd pick one or the other and stick to the vision. Trying to do both attack and defend would water this down, for me at least, as you have to make too many compromises to placate everyone - including me! ;) :D


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:32 am 
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Simulated Knave wrote:
Upon checking, the Fists apparently only use siegeworks when forced to. Otherwise, they prefer to avoid them.


Well if the player decides to spend the points on them, then they can go via this line. Otherwise the list should provide a mud marine attack force. For the supplement however, yes, they are forced to defend.

Quote:
Amusingly, this makes me sort of right (in that the Fists should be attacking)


Who is to say that a wild animal cornered will not strike back to defend itself? The list is supposed to be the IF setting up for an expected assault (on whatever), and then a dedicated initiative to push the enemy back. Use whatever story makes people happy in regards to the air assault elements not being available. So far I am happy with the list (in theory) of providing a dedicated defence to stop an enemy crossing a midway point, and dealing with any that come through via the air. Pushing forwards is going to be their main weak point which I am fine with at this point.

Quote:
The Iron Warriors love them some siegeworks, even when attacking - so their assault list is gonna look pretty similar to their defense list.


If it is made as the one list, experience will show that they would concentrate on one or the other. Otherwise they will have a list with no focus and a very large kitchen sink to dispose of.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:48 am 
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Firebase is different from the bunkers purely for the capacity to hold more troops.

That also reminds me, what should the size of it be to hold 8 stands? I would think a round 'monster base' for modelling purposes?

The issue with trenches appears to be that Marines would not act as Imp Guard do. Their numbers are prohibitive to 'defend the line' so (and I have changed my view in this respect), they would create 'bottlenecks' or defend from such positions to gain from their strengths and limit the opposing numbers coming through. Hence why the minefields and Firebases work.

As for attack or defend, look at the fact that the force is quite slow without spending the points. I can see dedicated Vindicators pushing forwards as well as Land Raiders. Apart from that, it will be foot troops most of the way unless they have spent on Land Raider Transports or the expensive side of a drop formation. What the list allows however is for troops to garrison forwards in some relative safety due to the firebases. Also remember the minefields are as much a hinderence to them as they are to the enemy :)

Overall, I think the list is achieving what it set out to do and provide a Marine list that is on it's way to being competative without requiring air assaults. If the Warhounds are taken out, then that is yet a further step away from the iconic Marine tournament lists. To remain competative, the goal will be activations, so yes, every decision on the list has this in mind.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:06 am 
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Here's another brainstorm (no in-depth thought) FB - Bunkers give IF units inside a watered down version of the Fearless rule. Call it "Repulse" or whatever.

e.g remove the "no damage from losing an assault" and let them keep the effects of ATSKNF(half damage for hackdowns); allow them to stay within enemy ZOC(the bunker) - which means they have to assault next turn if they're still in btb(inside the bunker).

Haven't worked out what happens after they lose an assault yet :D Just wanted to throw the idea out there.


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