Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 255 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 13, 14, 15, 16, 17

Imperial Fists Development 2

 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:25 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20848
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
The list isn't meant to represent the siege of the emperor' palace, but a more modern siege.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:31 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:22 pm
Posts: 5678
Location: Australia
Honda

Some interesting ideas. My main question before I go into the post and look at the viability of ideas, one question:

How is the force from such an idea meant to compete in the GT scenario?

Being so defensive, I see BTS, T&H and Blitz being out of consideration. Leaving only two objectives (DTF and TSNP) which are probably the two hardest to achieve, I am having trouble seeing how they will be competitive without deliberatly changing the goals of the GT scenario.

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Chaos Squats


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 3:12 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 6:05 pm
Posts: 169
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas
Quote:
How is the force from such an idea meant to compete in the GT scenario?


Well, the first year, if you've timed the release correctly, you'll be the only one fielding the list and everyone else will be so intimidated by facing a large resin wall that you'll pretty much zip to the top of every tournament. After the fanfare dies down, someone will figure out what you're doing, banish you from the tournament circuit and you'll live the rest of your life as a pariah...or even better, you might strive for Julian Assange status in Epic and threaten to release secret development notes associated with the list, thereby assuring that the ERC come down hard on you and motion to place you in a small box with nothing but the resin pieces of wall you assaulted their intellects with.
;D


To be honest, I guess it slipped my mind that you were intending this as a tournament ready list. I would have some concerns about developing a list that is expected to be defensive in nature which seems to be more scenario oriented, yet also able to compete with all the other lists out there. Not that it isn't possible, only that you may find yourself in a position where the defensive list has more of a OGBM or AMTL effect to a tourney, which may not be what you intend.

Quote:
Being so defensive, I see BTS, T&H and Blitz being out of consideration.


I'm not so sure that at this stage that the statement is valid.

Blitz -> Terminators
T&H -> Sallying forces from gates
BTS -> Depends on what it is, but the Laser Defense Tower should have some effect

Quote:
Leaving only two objectives (DTF and TSNP) which are probably the two hardest to achieve, I am having trouble seeing how they will be competitive without deliberatly changing the goals of the GT scenario.


So, is it possible that the list is limited in scope? Sure, but that has more to do with design and what it is expected to accomplish. Going back to my initial post on the list, I define my scope and then give a few details later on how that might be accomplished.

But the most important part of this list, and any list for that matter, is what do you want it to do? You don't have a working model to help guide you like the Krieg or Elysian lists, so until you answer that question, it will be difficult to arrive at a cohesive solution.

I know you know this, but a list is a lot more than a bunch of formations that coexist on the table. You're supposed to be able to do something with them. Putting a list together just to feature a different unit or formation won't attract people or cause them to do silly conversion things at this ridiculously small scale.

Look at your WE list...and BL's Red Corsairs as well. Look at the hobby effort they inspired. Why do you think that happened?

So what do you want to do?

1. Sit in your deployment zone in trenches and shoot people?

2. Run around in rhino's and melta people to death?

3. Drop out of the sky and beat people senseless?

How do you want it to work? What is the operational model? Why would anyone want to play the list? Why is this list going to be different than any of the other SM lists, not the least of which is the codex list which is quite capable?

If you're not sure how to answer that question yet, take a gander at a 40K codex or two (that would be called homework). In the first page or so, there is a brief explanation of why you would collect that army. What's great about that from a consumer perspective is you can read that and say, "Hmm, I rather like the sound of that" or "Oh, that's not me at all, better keep looking".

So, why do I want to play your list?

Note: And don't feel like you are alone in this regard. I am supposed to be the Alpha Legion AC, but for the life of me, the list that I wanted to create isn't all that significantly different from E&C's Vraks rebels, so languishes that effort because at this scale, there sometimes aren't enough differentiators to justify yet another list. Not saying that an IF list isn't possible within a framework, but you're going to have to define why it should exist.


Oh, and never ask for my opinion. I'll give it. lol

Cheers,

_________________
Remember Taros? We do.

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:04 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:22 pm
Posts: 5678
Location: Australia
Thanks Honda

Just balancing what time I have so I will be back to this - just not in the next 24 hours, that's all :)

Cheers......

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Chaos Squats


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:40 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 6:05 pm
Posts: 169
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas
No worries. I pretty much figured it would be a "See you next year!" kind of thing.

If so, Happy New Year!

_________________
Remember Taros? We do.

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:10 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8705
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe
IA10 just arived and i had a skip of the Siege Assault Vanguard List.

For the whole army: No Drop Pods are allwed!
The enemy player has to place a special Siege Objective inhis own deployment zone. If the Siege Assault player doesn't hold that Objective he can't score better than a draw.

Here the list itself (differences to the regular Codex Space Marine i have written in parentheses):

HQ
- Space Mareine Siege Master (nothing specialon an Epic level. Just a Captain/Supreme Commander. With Command Squad he cantake a Land Raider Prometheus as Dedicated Transport)
- SM Chapter Master
- SM Librarian
- SM Chaplain
- Master of the Forge
- Unique Characters from IA9 and IA10

ELITES
- Terminator Squad
- Terminator Assault Squad
- Sternguard VeteranSquad
- Venerable Dreadnought
- Dreadnought
- Techmarine

DEDICATED TRANSPORTS
- Rhino
- Razorback
- Land Raider Prometheus

TROOPS
- Siege Dreadnought Talon (3 Siege and/or Ironclad Dreadnoughts. Only half of the Troop choiced may be Siege Dreadnought Talons. If half the Dreadnoughts in the Army are destroyed then all remaining Dreadnoughts gain the Rage USR)
- Space Marien Tactical Squad (may take Siege Mantlets which enables them to re-roll failed armour saves against shooting attacks. With Mantlets they can't be transported in Rhinos/Razorbacks, may not run or make a Sweeping Advance <-note that all Terminators have the same restirction in WH40k)
- Siege Assault Squad (Jumppack-less Assault Squad may have Land Raider, Land Raider Crusader or Land Raider Redeemer as Dedicated Transport. May re-roll their Sweeping Sdvance rolls)

FAST ATTACK
- Caestus Assault Ram
- Assault Squad
- Vanguard Veteran Squad

HEAVY SUPPORT
- Predator Tank Squadron* (1-3 Predators)
- Space Marine Devastator Squad
- Thunderfire Cannon
- Whirlwind Support Squadron* (1-3 Whirlwinds)
- Vindicator Tank Squadron* (1-3 Whirlwinds)
- Land Raider Achilles
- Land Raider Helios

*Note that in any other Space Marien Codex you get only one of these vehicles per Heavy Support choice.

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:02 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:22 pm
Posts: 5678
Location: Australia
Thanks BL

It is not too far different that what is already in the list then
- no drop pods is neither here nor there. The army makes it an all or nothing compromise due to the expense so it will be rare I guess
- The siege assault is interesting with the use of the Crusaders. I will look at that more.
- Assault, veteran and venerable options are not really represented at an epic level so no issue there
- I think the list mirrors the Heavy Support quite well.

I should start to have more time coming up so I will get back into the list. As the CBF factor is lowering, I will also get to Honda's replies as well :)

Thanks BL for your assistance.

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Chaos Squats


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:16 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20848
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
Use of the Caestus Assault Ram is interesting.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:10 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8705
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe
Yes. And Land Raider, Land Raider Crusader and Land Raider Redeemer only as Dedicated Transports.

The use of the Caestus i guess is for ramming stright into enemy fortress walls.

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:43 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8705
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe
Interesting tidbit found in Imperial Armour 10 about the Land Raider Achilles:
Quote:
At the time of the Horus Heresy the pattern's use had not extended far beyond spearhead units of the Imperial Fists themselves with quantities delivered in gift to the Dark Angels, Thousand Sons and Salamanders Legions.


Also it occured to me thatit might be afiting idea to include Multi-melta equipped Tacticals/Devastators in the Imperial Fists army. At least in the offensive version (Siege Assault Vanguard).
Off course they have to be renamed to Siege Tactical/Siege Devastator units instead of Salamanders Tacical/Salamanders Devastator units.

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:59 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:22 pm
Posts: 5678
Location: Australia
Thanks BL

Good to have some this info come in.

Cheers.....

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Chaos Squats


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:39 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:22 pm
Posts: 5678
Location: Australia
Quote:
As someone looking for something new, why would I want to play this list? Assuming I had an interest in trying to paint something yellow half as decently as Vaaish, what is it that should attract me to this list? I understand the fluff behind it, and I am a big fluff player, but I'm struggling a bit to see why I should pick this list to play. Where's the sizzle?


I have found some time (after all these months) and kept this question from Honda in mind. I think I am happy to talk about it now as I look to pick this up again in the coming months.

Firstly, any one playing Imperial Fists should be taking the standard Codex force. That list represents any Codex chapter quite well and has all the 'bells and whistles". My interest comes from a Marine setup that does not make use of the Thunderhawk transports or Warhounds which are so prevalent in so many of the Codex lists. Even with other Marine lists, the inclusion of these still sees a similar playstyle that I was hoping to divorce myself from in this list.

Now it is easy to state that the Codex list is flexible and can be played other ways. History of tournaments however has shown that not to be the case in the majority of cases. Hence the need to make something that constrained that play style. So what I ended up with was the prospect of a Marine list without their most popular units.

So why the Imperial Fists? Why not tack onto the Apocrypha list? It is more a case of idealogy and representation. The inclusion of the Thunderhawks and the differences in such units as Tarantulas saw me support that list for its own development in breaking new ground, however wanting something that went further down the path of the strict guidlines that I was looking for.

To assist this, the force needed further assistance to help it as a true 'foot slogging' force and so ideas such as the battlements, mines and general siege/anti-siege became a reality. In this respect, and being a gamer that appreciates the literature of the past, the Imperial Fists came to mind as those showing the greatest potential in Siege warfare. This was also strengthened in the literature of the past and present that sees the Imperial Fists going in with less than full resources, sometimes far behind enemy lines, and working with what they have to either hold out against an enemy, or to attack from a position of protection.

This is essentially what the goal of the list is. To provide a force that is short of the support of Warhounds and Thunderhawks, and one that either finds itself on the defensive from the start, and battles its way from behind those enemy lines. This then becomes the challenge in finding a competitive list balance of units and abilities that will make the Imperial Fists work as a list apart from the Codex list.

So getting back to the question: "why would I want to play this list?".

1. If you want a challenge and be forced to take a strategic force that will test your strategic skills
2. To have the chance at taking a 'Siege list' that is not possible within the Codex Marine list
3. To generally have fun with an ideal and help its development to a competitive and accepted Developmental list

That is all I can offer for an answer I am afraid. I would like to have a new race with all new abilities etc, yet the reality of a Codex chapter is that they have strict guidelines to follow. While I have thrown out some of the strengths, I hope I have provided a whole set of new ideas which will find play tests and acceptance in the future. Who knows, they may start to actually pull a few wins in the future and then people may call for a reduction to its power :D

Lets not get ahead of ourselves at this point however. The list is not finished and merely at a point of limbo for the year to help things settle down for some play tests. When I have Black Legion buying up all the new books and providing me with their contents, the new year may well show some change to the list. :)

Cheers all.....

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Chaos Squats


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:05 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:22 pm
Posts: 5678
Location: Australia
I also just realised that the first page was not updated with the correct version of the Imperial Fists that was handed to the NetEA for inclusion in the Marine compilation

This has now been updated with V1 that I have loaded as "Latest updated file: 30 December 2010"

Please replace with any previous versions you may have

Thank you

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Chaos Squats


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 3:54 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:22 pm
Posts: 5678
Location: Australia
Hi All

This is being picked up again to get it into Dobbsy.

I received some suggested changes via PM which I am going to immediately adopt as I do not have a problem with any of them.

Here they are:

- Use Predators (At new NetEA prices)
- Remove Thunderhawk Bomber
- Use Marauder Heavy Bomber (Stats from Epic: Siege) instead of normal Marauders
- Go to 225pts for Vindicators (As per NetEA changes)
- Implement any other NetEA Marine updates
- Remove Battlebarge (Just to cement the ground-based theme)


After 9 months I also have a mind to add in some standard Marine items so more on this as the weekend progresses. In effect I have to:

- Consider each of the Predators
- Consider the addition of the Rhino and Razorback

The main goal (as always) will be to provide a competitive Marine ground based force, yet something significantly different to what the NetEA Marine list already provides.

More updates to come...

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Chaos Squats


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 1:32 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:22 pm
Posts: 5678
Location: Australia
Closing this thread to open up the next development thread for this list.

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Chaos Squats


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 255 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 13, 14, 15, 16, 17


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net