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Imperial Fists Development 2

 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:13 am 
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Land Raider swap for the Achilles = Are you not worried about taking out the long ranged shots if we are also removing the Predators?

Nope. Every list should have a weakness.

One of this list's weaknesses can be a lack of good AT shooting.

Note that this also helps put the focus onto the Hellfire Dreadnoughts and Lascannon Tarantulas as a source of AT.

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4. Keep the formation as 6 only - quite boring

Boring is balanced.

Plus, you want to have 2 different types of Whirlwinds, that alone argues for restraint in the army list construction section.

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- Castellans = It is an option I guess. Do we really need two formations that do the same thing however? Would it not be better as an upgrade?

They're losing their ignores cover ability when fired alongside normal Whirlwinds, so yes, if you want them to shine as a unit in their own right they should have their own formation.

As noted above, the Whilwind formation needs a little restraint, currently it's gone too far.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:22 am 
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Static Defences :

Remove note about Terminators counting double, IMO, as otherwise you have a lot of other similar sized units in the game (Ogryns, Obliterators, Chaos Terminators, Wraithguard, Tyranid Warriors, Ork Nobz, etc.) which should also be noted by rights.

Make "dangerous" for vehicles, so that Walkers like Dreadnoughts can go inside?
At the same time allow AV's into the Firebase... and they can take up 2 Inf slots each. :-)

That would allow a Dreadnought formation to Garrison inside a Firebase... pretty nifty!

You should probably set an X and Y dimention for the Minefield, such as 50cm long, 2cm deep.

Note that Titans would be allowed to "Step Over" Minefields as they're "lower than the Titan's knees"!
(I find that pretty funny)


I would suggest changing the Tarantula speeds from 0cm to Immobile, so you don't get people saying they're allowed to crab-walk 5cm on roads if they use the Advance order.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 12:26 pm 
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as a minor note, those Dual Inferno warhounds E&C suggested are the type i included in the Bloody Hand list, in which i called it Hellfire Pattern (though, being as to how they're a chaos variant, this information may not be much use)

i would also argue that predators should not be removed. light tanks have a purpose in a siege as much as any long static line battle, reenforcing the line when it starts to buckle, or pushing into gaps created in the enemy line.

and for what its worth, i think that these terminators are decidedly more valuable than the normal type. certainly i would take them just about all the damned time. teleport (and the high SR) virtually ensures that the terminators will pick their engagement. they are an alpha strike unit that seem virtually always to be used in melee to gain their MW attack. so against any non-skimmer unit they are the better option, meaning a majority of them, and given how the terminator player picks where it fights pretty much all the time, it seems to be a unit better optimised for its purpose than the normal version, making it worth more points.

and being able to select terminators after you see your opponents list is a very bad rule. these terminators are seemingly better against most targets, and only a poor choice when exposed to a list that bypasses CC only. giving them the choice to use the normal unit in these circumstances is a further power boost to a unit that doesnt need it. (also, how do you determine what choice is made when two Imperial Fists players square off)

i do like a dual semi-blind list system* but this is a system that works well for games like warmachine, i am not at all convinced it is a system that works for Epic...

oh, and to be contrary, i like the 'veterans' as an idea too

(*wherein both players select two lists for a tournament, and upon seeing their opponents two lists, chooses one to play with, revealed simultaneously.)

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 12:29 pm 
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being able to select terminators after you see your opponents list is a very bad rule.

Agreed.

It's bad enough that people can select Drop Pods or Rhinos before deployment... do you really want to make the most powerful list even more powerful?

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 1:55 pm 
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The Siege Dreadnoght doesn`t need Ignore Cover on it`s CC attack as it already is a MW attack. But it should get Ignore Cover in the Notes and FF3+ (see Dreadnought thread: viewtopic.php?f=73&t=19356 )

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 2:13 pm 
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At this rate, we will have the next revision up by tomorrow :D

Ok, I will ask questions and tackle each one separately.

===========

Removal of Predators and Changing the Land Raider are an option - I am not too happy about it but I am not going to stand in the way of progress. Playtests will show whether they need them or not anyways.
============

Whirlwinds:
So would people be ok with the formation of 4 with the upgrade to purchase 2 more to make it 6? The reason I ask this, is because at 4, they are up to 300 points. If we make the minimum 6, then they are probably up around the 425-450 price mark as standard. With the hope of keeping the army activation competitive, I am thinking that the formation of 6 as standard goes against this design. So again, thoughts on how they should be purchased?
============

Castellans: I knew my last post regarding upgrades would not come across correctly. :P What I was proposing that rather than have different formations doing the same thing, have it exist in a format similar to this (as an example only):

Whirlwinds - 4 whirlwinds - 300 points, Upgrade the formation to Castellans +75 points

So rather than have the two formations, keep the two units, however pay the upgrade cost to gain the Ignore cover trait. Does this work for people?
============

Static Defences - everything listed by E&C here I agree with. No issues there

- Minefield and setting the dimensions - I was actually thinking about that. I could not find it in any list other than some weird rule about hidden counters - something I would rather avoid. So yes, something like the 50cm and 2cm wide is fine.
============

Changing tarrantulas to Immobile - damn, there goes my roads idea! *kidding*. Yep, once again, easily done.
============

Terminators - people seem to forget that Terminators can themselves be charged. Seeing that charge can be made with various units which would allow a FF engage range of 30cm - 50cm, I daresay the Titanhammer terminators, in my battles at least, will be a rarity I think. Seeing they are normally outnumbered, and most likely have a BM on them, they are already -4 on the combat resolution. At least when standard terminators are clipped, they get a minimum of 1-2 FF shots off at 3+ which is almost a guaranteed hit, and possibly a wound. That +1 could, and usually is, the difference between losing and winning a combat. Titanhammer terminators do not have this defence (regardless of their armour). If I saw them on a table, I would at least make sure I had a Rhino charge for a clipping assault as then I know that I have that guaranteed +4 and am not going to take a wound. With standard terminators, there would be more of a thought process and calculation.

I do not really wish to remove the rule. At present from what I recall, it seems pretty even for and against its inclusion. Then again I could take it out, let playtests go for a year and see if the trend away from the Titanhammer termies is evident. I guess that will be the answer in the end...

Final pathetic plea...Also remember that this army does not have the same luxury to dump its transports. Why would they when they pay so much for them?
At present they also pay the premium for any spaceship or drop pod potential (due to what is available to them)
They just seem to be losing out in so many areas IMO that such a rule would be a balance for them.
============

Siege Titans and Siege Dreads : I will look at these when I am not so tired - been a long day, need to sleep.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 2:23 pm 
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I'd make the minefields wider than 2cm.
You don't really want enemy Titans just stepping over minefields. Kinda defeats the point of them.

Maybe 25cm x 4cm?

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 2:36 pm 
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Onyx, technically the Titans' rule allows them to float over any width of object, just as long as they don't stop on top of it, so 4cm would be no difference to 2cm.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 2:49 pm 
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Wrong. They can't step over terrain which is higher than the Titan's knee AND which isn't wider than 2cm.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 3:08 pm 
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I'm curious. Why should a siege list weakness be AT?

surely in a siege the objective is to destroy an enemy fortress or hive or something equally impressive and big. To do so you need some sort of anti armour firepower to blow up the armour on the fortress.

Marines wouldn't fight trench warfare against other trenches. They would just drop podin and waste the enemt from behind heir trenches.

We need to decide what sort of warfare is being committed by te IF. Is it similar to WW1 or to the siege of Vraks?

I think it should be siege of Vraks, so the fists would have a lor of heavy anti armour firepower, but lacking in anti-infantry. For example they could take destructor predators, but not anhillators.

Titans
In the list we should look at two patterns of Titans. stactic and assault. In Tactica Imperials titans are used as static gun emplacements in sieges, however at the same toime they are also used as heavy transport to assault enemy positions. As such there could be two patterns for the warlord and Reaver, but no warhounds (not suited to siege warfare.

One pattern would be ranged bombardment (rocket pods or quake cannons) the other a heavy transport. However they should still be anti armour in their roles. They are to break through the enemy walls and allow the angels of death to do their work. so a warlord could have:

Corvus assault pod, 2 melta cannons, inferno cannon
or
Corvus assault pod, 2 melta cannons, close combat weapon.

Both are designed to take a formation of marines into an enemy fort, even if the walls are still tanding.

titan hammer formations
I think that titan hammer formations should be seperate form normal terminators, and possible 0-1, with the following profile

3 titan hammer terminator squads and 1 titan hammer command squad

same stats as yours, the command squad has the commander upgrade and a vortex grenade.

weapon range firepower notes
vortex grenade 15cm MW2+ Titan killer (D6), one shot


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 3:08 pm 
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you are stupid and forgot about the 2cm wide thing

Ah, then that's ok then. :-)

Stupid me is stupid. :D

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the fists would have a lor of heavy anti armour firepower, but lacking in anti-infantry. For example they could take destructor predators, but not anhillators.

As if Marines ever take Annihilators anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 9:10 pm 
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While this list is a Siege list, it is a defensive list, not an attacking list - that is for the Iron Warriors.

Due to this I will not entertain an air assault as that is what the codex Marine list can do. If this is unrealistic for people, I would point out the fact that 40K is a game where people travel millions of miles just to hit the enemy with a sword. Unrealistic? Well a certain amount of Suspension of Disbelief is required. At the end of the day, even defenders need to push the enemy back and gain lost ground and that is what the vision of this list is, a defensive pose, short on air support, and attempting to reach their desperate objectives

At present, the list does contain an expensive drop podding solution, and I am happy for that to remain as another aspect to how the force would fight. It does not have transport Thunderhawks however.

As for 0-1 formations - they do not scale to points so they will not be included.

Vortex Grenade: not sure if is scales to an epic level.

Terminators: At present I would like to keep the termies at the same costing. It is just easier that way.

Titans: I have to come back to them when I have some time

AT weapons: I fully agree. I think the list definately needs a hard hitting AT profile at range which I think will be lost with the loss of predators and standard land raiders.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 9:21 pm 
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I think the list definately needs a hard hitting AT profile at range which I think will be list with the loss of predators and standard land raiders.

What's wrong with giving that role to Hellfire Dreadnoughts?

Predators are weapons of offence, Dreadnoughts are weapons of defence (Hellfire) or short-range area denial (Siege).

Keep Predators, and you won't have the "defensive Siege" list you're looking for.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 9:26 pm 
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I'll say it again - give the Titanhammer Terminators a TK attack. It represents a crapload of Thunderhammers + a Vortex Grenade + specialist training quite well. The Titanhammer formation involves specific training and equipment - it's not just a bunch of assault Terminators.

Otherwise, I find they just feel like slightly more specialized normal Terminators.

I'd also personally recommend that this be focused a little more as an attack list and the Iron Warriors be the defensive list - they were notorious as garrison troops and built the Iron Cage, after all. Plus they have auxiliaries to help hold trenches.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 9:34 pm 
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I'll say it again - give the Titanhammer Terminators a TK attack.

Sounds much too good to me.

Quote:
I'd also personally recommend that this be focused a little more as an attack list and the Iron Warriors be the defensive list - they were notorious as garrison troops and built the Iron Cage, after all. Plus they have auxiliaries to help hold trenches.

The Imperial Fists' biggest Siege was the defence of the Imperial Palace.

Also the supplement they're going to appear in has them on the defensive.

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