When in doubt, get rid of the things you don't like.

Seems to work for me.

That said - and this is a problem I face a little with the Apocrypha - Terminators are awesome. I don't think they're undercosted or overpowered, but they're, well, very good at something the Space Marine list has a relative lack of and that variant lists lack even more. And they're cool. Really cool. If every Space Marine list became nothing but Air Assaulting Terminators, I'd regret it, but I'd also squeal like a little girl.

I think one option might be to make it less "siege list" and more "last stand list". No outside intervention - fewer allies (especially Navy), less or no drop-podding, and limited or no teleporting Terminators.

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I am going to go towards a tiered list as it is the only way that I see to force an INF list

I also have an idea that the IF can set up their Firebases on their side of the table (as normal) and garrison to them and not be relegated to the objective markers - yes, it is a special rule, however it is one that supports a chapter that is supposed to be known for it's defensive capabilities (not just in a Siege). List structure has shown not to give me this, so maybe a special rule might.

I will get the list to work to the vision that I started with, one way or another...

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The Firebases actually sounds pretty good.

Tiered lists seem like a good idea to me to deal with some of the problems of Space Marines, or at least the ones you're facing here. However, you'll still need to deal with the problems underlying the choices people are making.

The Terminator one is tricky, though. I run into it, too.

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I would like to point out to all the 'nay-sayers' out there that stated that Titanhammer terminators were a viable choice. The above list shows 3 formations - none of which have been designated (I am guessing) as Titanhammers. Without a defensive ability (FF0), I cannot see Titanhammers taken on the blind. Hence my push for the special rule of choosing the terminator variant after seeing the opponent's list.

Chances are, for any tournament game, Titanhammers are more of a gamble than a strategic choice. The special rule takes the gamble out of the equation and makes it a strategic choice.

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Titanhammers are awesome ; no special rule unless playtesting shows the list is underperforming.

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Any such special rule would also require a big bump in terminator pricing to pay for that bonus flexibility.

Noted.

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Hang on. I am curious in understanding why the Terminator costs will have to go up. If this is the case, do Marines pay a premium to chose to drop their transports? If so, what is that premium? As this list does not get to avail of that rule, I would be interested in seeing where the saving can be made.

Titanhammers are awesome. I hear this and I understand. Yet they are awesome for 1 thing, and after that, they are a liability - especially if they are your BTS. If their 'one shot pony trick' does not work, you are out of luck with these guys. At least regular terminators give you that defence and a chance at 'luck' to not be destroyed so easily after they appear.

Essentially, all I see are people stating how good they are. What I do not see, are people willing to take them in a competative list on the blind. I have tried from here and no betting man would do it from what I can see.

So what I am asking is show me a list that would take Titanhammer terminators over regular ones for a tournament list.

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Terminators as BTS is rarer than hen's teeth.


I'll see about writing up a list soonish.

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Simple really; The Terminators choice with such a special rule is significantly better than the Terminators choice for the same cost in other lists, because this one also has the option to switch to a CC weapon load if would be useful.

Worst case scenario - The Terminators come up against a skimmer horde and so pick normal terminators. They're no worse off than a normal marine list with Terminators in such a case.

Best case scenario - The Terminators come up against an army with no skimmers and little FF ability. They pick titanhammers and do major damage. They're better off in this scenario than a normal marine list.

Because of this, they need to pay extra; under no circumstances are they worse off, and under many circumstances they're better off. On average, they'll be better off, so worth more.

I just noticed that the Termies do not have Dreadnoughts as an upgrade - was that intentional?
This does prevent the use of a reinforced Terminator formation in Landing Craft as a fairly resilient BTS (which I have used reasonably regularly) It provides a huge punch, and I try to bring in a second Terminator in a THawk to work in a pair.

If this is a defensive list then remove Teleport from Terminators. Teleportation is for attacking.

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The best form of defence is attack. :-)

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Then expect teleporting Terminators be still a major feature in this list until something drastic happens to the list structure.

I would rather see Terminators as upgrades then as a teleporting formation of their own in a defensive list.

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Limit Teleporting. It's that simple. Require a Battle Barge, for example.

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