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Imperial Fists Development 2

 Post subject: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 1:18 am 
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Latest updated file: 30 December 2010

===========================

Hi Everyone

I have decided to start a new thread with this latest revision as 16 pages on the other one was going too long.

Below is the list that combines just about all the accepted ideas that have been given in regards to the Imperial Fists.

(please use the latest version - others are kept there for the sake of development)

Regards...


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Last edited by frogbear on Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:02 am, edited 12 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 1:23 am 
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Quick notes:

I have not included the LR Achilles at this time. I would be interested in further discussions as to whether it is worth replacing the standard LR. My personal opinion is that it should not as the longer range on the standard LR is needed. I have also not included it as an additional unit as I did not wish to flood the list with similar units. I am open to general opinion on these however.

I thought about limiting static defences to 10% of army value, however decided to leave it at 1/3 so as not to obstruct army development. If you believe this is an issue, please advise.

Finally the Whirlwinds. The +250 points for the Castellans I feel may be a little too cheap. I was thinking of making them a +275 upgrade. Interested in your thoughts as well.

Any other ideas that have been discussed and rejected via discussion have not been included.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 2:01 am 
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My thoughts:
I'm not sure static defenses should be a separate third from allies.

I doubt Assault Marines are worth 175 without the ability to ride in Thunderhawks.

I'm still not entirely sure Predators make sense in a siege list. Fast light tanks + static defenses don't entirely make sense, you know?

You've got Dreads even cheaper than I do, and in any combination - as was pointed out in one of the Apocrypha threads, four fire support Dreads are very competitive with Devastators. Especially Devs without Rhinos or Thunderhawks.

I'm not sure Scout Titans entirely make sense - fast and mobile =/= siege, you know?

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 2:09 am 
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Thanks SK. No doubt I may be missing something with the Dreads. Remember they cannot Thunderhawk in, however I do take the point in comparison to Devs.

It is going to be a question on whether I do introduce Rhinos if I find the force does not move across a battlefield. I will do playtests first I guess

Predators & Scout Titans - yeah, I understand. I have left it there for now to see what feedback I get.

Assault Marines - Once again, I will wait for the playtests. You are probably right however

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 2:49 am 
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Quote:
Thanks SK. No doubt I may be missing something with the Dreads. Remember they cannot Thunderhawk in, however I do take the point in comparison to Devs.


Hence why I didn't bring up how all-assault formations are better at Air Assault than Terminators are. ;)

Quote:
It is going to be a question on whether I do introduce Rhinos if I find the force does not move across a battlefield. I will do playtests first I guess


I can't imagine they'll do much moving, honestly. But I may be wrong. I'd suggest the possibility of giving vehicle formations a Dozer Blade upgrade option, which would give all the Vehicles walker for +X per X. Rhino chassis-only might be best.

Another alternative is just LRs for transport, of course. They feel siegey enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 3:13 am 
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Whirlwind battery - Isn't the Castellans upgrade a bit of a waste, either the ignore cover is wasted or only the castellans can fire to get ignore cover on the barrage attacks. A 550 point formation (if thea castellans are added) seems likely to never be used. Wouldn't a seperate formation or the ability to upgrade to Castellans be better option.

Hyperios platforms - The hyperios notes
Quote:
Notes: May only fire AA weapons if there is an unsuppressed
Targeting Tracker Tarantula in the formation
how do they gain a T.T.Tarantula to be able to fire.
The Hyperios command platform (if this is supposed to be the T.T.Tarantula) has no weapons for range to be supressed (other than FF range) and seems to be a redundant model in the formation.

The Seige Dread - with it having 2 ranged weapons and a CC weapon (even with them only being AP) it seems to be over gunned and would probaly be undercosted compared to the other variant in the list (testing may prove otherwise but in my experience it will be too good and could prabably lose the heavy flamer,or have a slight drop in to hit values, to be on par with the other Dread).

Preds and Warhounds - As SK has stated they don't seem to fit with the idea of a seige list but as with the IG seigemasters they will need some speed for grabbing objectives if only for game balance.
Maybe the vindicators could prove to be enough for that roll ,maybe not, but the list will need something with a bit of speed to break out from the defensive lines and balance the objectives side of the game for the IF's.


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 3:27 am 
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dptdexys wrote:
Whirlwind battery - Isn't the Castellans upgrade a bit of a waste, either the ignore cover is wasted or only the castellans can fire to get ignore cover on the barrage attacks. A 550 point formation (if thea castellans are added) seems likely to never be used. Wouldn't a seperate formation or the ability to upgrade to Castellans be better option.


Yes. That can be a consideration. I went with what was on the threads at the time. It does make sense however.

Quote:
Hyperios platforms - The hyperios notes
Quote:
Notes: May only fire AA weapons if there is an unsuppressed
Targeting Tracker Tarantula in the formation
how do they gain a T.T.Tarantula to be able to fire.


Good point. Missed the name change and the fact that it did not have a weapon. I will look at adding in a 30cm or even 45cm ranged 'attack' that is not really an attack - just for suppression purposes.

Quote:
The Siege Dread - with it having 2 ranged weapons and a CC weapon (even with them only being AP) it seems to be over gunned and would probaly be undercosted compared to the other variant in the list (testing may prove otherwise but in my experience it will be too good and could prabably lose the heavy flamer,or have a slight drop in to hit values, to be on par with the other Dread).


Obviously something I still need to review. Thanks for that. Seems I have been more concentrated on the list build than on stats :P

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 4:06 am 
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Hi,

Is there a reason that Tac's and Dev's are cheaper than Codex?

Siege Scouts- I like them but maybe name them 'Sniper Scouts' for possible cross list compatibility.

Can WW Cast shoot with the others and opt not to use IC? They seems kinda lame. Should be there own formation or upgrade the whole formation. 4 or 8 WW Formation. Give them normal Hunter upgrade not WW replace.

Hunter Upgrade. Why can they have 2? Do they lack AA in the list? *Looks at list*
Hyperios plaftforms, Extra Hunters and Navy... Seems like more AA than normal. Maybe just one Hunter?

Agree to drop at least Warhounds. Also have been thinking about Siege Pattern Titans. Would you want long range or assault?? I'll post some thoughts...

Tarantulas look good expect I would make them Inf.

Hyperios Formation seems undesirable. AA 30cm? Only AA no AT shot and I need to keep this TTT one too? I'll just take some Tbolts instead....

Siege Dread looks fine. Might have 2 weapons but there 15cm!

==========================================================================================

Some Siege Titans

Warlord Titan - 1025
2x Quake Cannon
2x Plasma Destructor

Warlord Titan - 775
2x Gatling Blaster
Corvus Assault Pod
Laser Burner

Reaver Titan - 725
Carapace Landing Pad
2x Quake Cannon

Reaver Titan - 600
Corvus Assault Pod
Laser Burner
Gatling Blaster

Note: Points were from AMTL


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 4:15 am 
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Quote:
Is there a reason that Tac's and Dev's are cheaper than Codex?


AoC, they don't have Rhinos or Drop Pods and no access to Thunderhawks.

I'm wondering if they might be too expensive. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 4:24 am 
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Looks like I lost myself a little in this revision.

Siege Scouts should be priced at 200 points (maybe 225 if I get negative feedback). As for their name, not a problem. What's in a name afterall? :)

Troops are generally cheaper due to lack of transports and the removal of their 'potential' to act as Air assault units. If you take Drop Pods, you will find that you pay standard Codex prices or more! Hence I feel it is balanced in this respect.

Castellans can shoot with or without IC. Adding them to a formation was a cheaper solution. It is no different to 8 Whirlwinds, except this formation in the list can choose to fire 4BP IC instead. It was a solution so as not to introduce too many new units at the start without a playtest. Castellans are more expensive, so I am open to making the an upgrade to Whirlwinds.

Hunter Upgrade was 2 just to make them different. As a defending force, I see no real issue with them having 2 if they are prepared to spend the points. Notice that if they do want them on the move, INF are going to have to buy transports - not a cheap proposition. Also it opens the formation up to AT weaponry. I think people need to look at the list as a whole rather than its individual parts. If you buy them as part of the Armour, then it makes me happy that someone is considering this formation at all.

Tarrantulas to INF - why restrict AT weaponry to hit them? As they have no crew, does it make sense?

Hyperios Formation - It is yet another option to take in the list. It was an idea from feedback and I think it should stay until playtests advise otherwise - just my view however.

Siege Titans - I want to have the list played with as much standard as possible at this point before we go down that path. It is always an option, and if there is enough push, no doubt it is an easy replacement.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 4:32 am 
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I recommend giving the Castellans the ability to add Ignore Cover to a Barrage attack without an actual attack of their own. Call it incendiaries or something.

Other possibilities include replacing ordinary Whirlwinds with Castellans as an upgrade (with the implication that one or two fire the Castellan shells and the others fire normal WW shells), or just making them an independent formation.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:21 am 
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This will go in the next revision. Here are the stats on the Hyperios Command Platform to give it a stat that can be supressed:

Hyperios Command Platform LV 0 6+ 6+ 6+ Air Defence Scanner 45cm -

=============================
Siege Dread Weaponry
I am not sold on the fact that it's weaponry is too good in comparrison to the standard Dread. With the way the list performs a battle (without air assault, and having to pay premium for a drop), it's 15cm shots are not an issue for me. In fact, the Heavy Flamer for the Siege Dreadnought needs to gain (15cm) Ignore Cover

=============================

Siege Scouts have been renamed Scout Snipers in the next revision.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:45 am 
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Various things:

Put the Static Defences into the Titans & Aircraft allowance.

I thought we were going to remove the Predators as they're not Siege-Appropriate?

Also, I would suggest that you do indeed remove the standard Land Raider, and only have the Land Raider Achillies (The Siege Land Raider) available in formations.

Whirlwinds:
If used, Castellans should be split out into a separate formation.
I don't see why you're allowing free swaps for Hunters, seems like a change for change's sake.
I thought we were going to go with formations of 6 Whirlwinds rather than 4's, to emphasise the Fists' Siege Bombardment etc.?

If you have the Hyperios a "toothless" weapon such as "Scanner - 60cm" then Dave's problem with it is solved. Put in its notes that the Scanner's range is only for suppression purposes and not an actual weapon.

I'm not convinced that the Siege Dreadnought would be superior in this list, as it has no air insertion ability. With a transport Thunderhawk, or Drop Pods, it would definitely be worth more points.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:55 am 
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My suggestions for Siege Configuration Titans:


Quote:
Warlord Titan - 800pts
2x Inferno Gun
1x Melta Cannon
1x Close Combat Weapon


Reaver Titan - 650pts
1x Inferno Gun
1x Melta Cannon
1x Close Combat Weapon


Warhound Titan - 275pts or 500pts for 2
2x Inferno Gun


They are all "linebreaker" type configurations, with poor ranged fire abilities (Nothing beyond 30cm!) but massive anti-infantry firepower at short range & powerful CC engagement abilities for the battle titans.

The idea is that they're deployed against specific points in the enemy line to crack them, rather than just bombarding the enemy in a more general sense. They're all pretty weak at ranged AT as compared to their standard configuration brethren, as the majority target type in a Siege would be infantry.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:07 am 
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Static Defences to Titan/Aircraft allowance = Easy done

Predator Removal = was left in to attain the feedback. Looks like their removal is gaining enough support

Land Raider swap for the Achilles = Are you not worried about taking out the long ranged shots if we are also removing the Predators?

Whirlwinds = I must have missed the 6 formation Whirlwind discussion. I thought it was 4 and 8. There are a few options:
1. Keep the 4 & 8
2. Buy 4 and get 2 more as an upgrade - nice and cheap but you miss out on the 8
3. Buy 6 and get 2 from the upgrade - this is the expensive way
4. Keep the formation as 6 only - quite boring

- Free Hunter Swap = Easily handled if I make it a 6 unit formation - as they are bought as upgrades. If we stick with the 4 and 8 formation for Whirlwinds however, I would want to keep the free swap so as to keep the points down (to gain the 6 whirlwinds and 2 hunters)
- Castellans = It is an option I guess. Do we really need two formations that do the same thing however? Would it not be better as an upgrade?

Added the scanner in for the Command Platform at 45cm. I guess 60cm is not a problem either

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