Finally split the titans into separate stat lines / names. Going to play test the +disrupt suggestion going on in Ad Mech land on AML. Latest proposed version

NOTE: Superseded by version in OP


note: arty reaver should be +25 points

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Given the new stuff for iron hands in the marine codex there is a little more support for that invulnerable save from a bionic upgrade idea or at least on those vets and dreads. I think this is coming along pretty good now

I play against Uvenlords Iron Hands quite often and as an opponent I can say that i think you could give an Inv save to alo of units without making the list OP. I think they actually need something like that to make up for he loss of air assaults and the cost of their expensive formations.

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Some reflections and wishes for the list

Why would I choose the new Ironclad Dreadnought? It is good for killing infantry in cover 15 cm away but I do not really see the use in an army other than that. Am I missing something?

Why is the veteran officers in a clan at a discount? (125p compared to 150p if you buy them as upgrades)

The clans is to expensive. You are forced to buy a commander even in squads that do not need them and you must pay full price...

Move the Thunderhawk back to the normal list (not restricted) the list lack the normal assault+dev units anyhow so right now they are only limiting the Titans and is forcing the army to drop pod instead of loading the Hawks with Dreadnoughts

Change the veterans back to terminators without teleport (and make them cheaper.)

To buy the "great council retinue" means the clan will cost a minimum of 475 points and the unit you got will be needing some wheels (625p) or a drop pod (+200p strike cruiser) or it will be a very expensive blitzguard.
The Dreadnought Phalanx is a little cheaper at 400 points...
As I usually struggle with the number of activations perhaps we should let the normal marines be Supreme Commanders again?

What is your experience with this army and when and how do we enter the "development" status?

Pest control armies. Admittedly this is totally armchair general action going on here but we're looking at this with traditionally difficult to move from cover INF armies (orks and guard come to mind). It's not been tested much here but has in other lists so we dumped it in here to see how it goes.


Further emphasis on the Clan formation. Vet Officers may need an additional discount globally but we need to test some more before we do that.


The first part I can follow, the second I an not sure what you mean. Explain? You get a free CH in a Clan so I am not sure what the deal with that is. I guess it can be removed from your force provided an opponent agrees. The Commander has leader which greatly assists in shedding BM which is intended to help the Clan formation weather storms of fire directed at them and fits the grim fluff of these Cads. Since this list will be usually out activated, being able to shrug off BM is going to be important.


Might as well just play Codex list then if you're wanting the air-mobile playstyle. And that's a totally valid point mind you. Perhaps there's not enough to justify this list or it is fundamentally unstable under the rules and not worth existing (outside of Fanlist or specific scenario status).


Assault formation exists unchanged from the codex list but you're right in that they are a core formation. The heavy infantry is basically the devastator formation with some tactical bullet catchers. Perhaps a bulk discount is needed?


Well that IS somewhat the theme of the list after all, Astartes Drop Assault


They are exactly that. If the name is irritating then we can instead call it Iron Hands Terminator. Can't really justify them cheaper (already at a discount from the Codex entry). Am I mis-understanding something?


Perhaps the +LR Transport on the retinue needs to be included in the price for free (or sharply discounted) thus not penalizing the force for podding in the SC Clan (after all that's the theme, right? Sounds daft to penalize when you play fluffy ). I personally find them invaluable in holding the center of a board typically (play styles vary of course).


Que?

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One question about the clan formation:

I get one free commander. If I buy a veteran officer and a great council upgrade providing a supreme commander to the formation, then I have two CH in this formation? Nice for sheding BM..

Fair enough.


ok, nice


The first part I can follow, the second I an not sure what you mean.
Codex "tactical" unit consists of 6 stands it costs 275, buy the commander if you like and end up with 325 points.
Iron hands Clan costs 250p with 4 stands and one commander, add two more tacticals and they cost 325 points.
So the clan is "forced" to pay the cost of the commander in every unit, it is not free or what am I missing?
Still think the commander is a good thing, feels fluffy and nice but it is one of many small things that makes it hard to get enough activations so I just randomly complain


It's not that harsh, I want a little bit of both
This list is fun and under development, I just struggle with activations (repeat) and suck at deploying through drop pods so I'm trying to find a way of bringing in the dreadnoughts...and in the same time use the new and shiny Titans
Spending 200 points on a spaceship is not always fun and in my head part of the Iron Hands fluff is a ground pounding army with lots of vehicles not just drop pods... But I can adapt but I don't always want that

Na, my point was that the (in my head) usual build there is a Thunderhawk with devastators and assault marines. Try that with Heavy Infantry and assault marines and the Thunderhawk won't liftoff.
The Heavy Infantry seems good as they are for now.


Then I must learn to Drop Assault

No the name is fine but normal terminators do not have flamers...
Not sure they need a discount if they are cheaper in a clan.

Won't free be too good? It would certainly make me happy anyhow and perhaps solve a lot of my rambling about expensive clans bla bla bla...

Wasn't I clear
Well right now you need to buy a venerable or some veterans before you can buy the supreme commander. I usually want a Supreme commander but then I usually ends up with a unit that costs the same as a big Titan... never mind, my suggestion is not a good one fluffwise so ignore it

To summarize: If the Land Raiders would be at some discount and I get better at planetfalling everything will be good. Need to think of some smart way of using the dreads outside the pods also. Thunderhawk (or Landingcraft) was just my first idea.

Keep up with the good work!

That is how I'm playing it.
The Clan and the Phalanx is hard to break this way!

Officially putting another thread to collate all the Bat Reps we get posted in the forum by version.

viewtopic.php?f=73&t=26098

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There is some rumors on the internet...

Continuing my “monolog” on Iron Hands development…sorry for not having a life outside Epic

Some reflections after 10 games or so:
I have only tested the “new” Warhound of all the titans but it is fun and competitive.

The army is slower than normal marines but an 8 man clan and the Phalanx is a lot tougher. Compared to other tough units I meet the marines lack range but it is better in close combat. Overall the army seems balanced (with a minimum of 12 dreadnoughts )

Flesh is Weak: Never had any real use for it. Perhaps I am playing it wrong, anyone else having some experience with it? Next time I will try and announce it on every turn no matter what and we’ll see if it is useful.

Discount Iron Father in the clan formation is welcomed. Right now my last 4 games I have only taken the 1 obligatory clan with 8 tacticals just because it is a very expensive unit (a good unit but expensive) and I think the Heavy infantry is a much more cost effective choice.

Land Raiders: I would really like to have some veterans with weels (or larva-feet) so a points drop on the raiders would also be nice but we need to limit it to veterans in that case. Right now I can field tacticals in LR. Perhaps we need to rethink the Assault Transport thing. (or not )

Scouts: Perhaps a crazy idea but after reading some more background on the IH not having a scout company and the early talk about recons. What about moving the scouts to upgrades? (Add 1-2 scout units to the clan, phalanx and heavy infantry perhaps…)

And some questions:
Is the process of moving this list to developed status the same as moving a developed into approved? (18 games...) My friends always nags about me playing an experimental list but compared to a lot of other lists this is not (that) overpowered

What list do we use for testing? On the first page there is two lists and a link to a third. I play with the 0.5 proposed list and if you compare the 0.5 and the 0.4.x it is a very different list.

Small typos in the list:
The “Siege” dreadnought in the imperial fist list has FF 3+…
Razorbacks can still carry Recon Tacticals

Oh and if you have some good advice on what a 3000p army would look like please post it here!

/Uven

Sorry mate, I've not touched the IH for a while now as I'm trying to get a couple of new players up to speed and working on my Salamanders.

However I'm still reading your posts and batreps. I think the list is coming along, but I agree with a number of your points/concerns.

"The flesh is week" still seems difficult to work, I'm more inclined nowadays towards the invulnerable save representing bionics over this.

Moving the scouts to an upgrade would be ok I suppose, working in similar way to how ratling snipers work for IG infantry companies?

I haven't had a chance to "build" an new IH list from the latest version but I would be looking to keep most infantry mobile whilst some heavy hitting dreadnought formations garrison or drop in to the thick of things. I think we need to expect lower activations than normal SM but the extra resilience from armour and fearless or an invulnerable save should balance this to some degree.

As for what to do with the restricted formations, I'm at a bit of a loss as I'm inclined to spend on some air but then that means loosing out on titan support... Maybe in Dec/Jan I'll get time to play this list. I'd love a mobile fortress for the fun of it but unfortunately have no model or proxie to use at the moment.

In the mean time please continue with your battle reports, I enjoy them.

Uven thanks for carrying the torch in this one. So yes, the tradeoff on the list intentionally is that air assault can be done but if taken, you're coming in without titans, which is pretty fitting. I agree that FiW is seeming sub par so lets try out the next couple of games as involving bionic enhancements instead via IS. Was it Black Legion above that suggested thus takes place in Assaults only? That's what I'd lean towards to help push the list into its strength: FF monster formations. If it is a passive ability always on then it's probably going to need a cost associated with it which would further limit formation counts.

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Updated .5 IH List in the OP. Uses the Bionics rule as suggested by Uven and Black Legion.

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Nice!