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Raven Guard 2015-02-16

 Post subject: Re: Raven Guard 2015-02-16
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:34 am 
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Dave wrote:
Vanguard's have an EA MW.


Ah yep. Missed that crucial little detail. :-\

Nice list. Looks fun.

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 Post subject: Re: Raven Guard 2015-02-16
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:26 pm 
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okay I've had a fiddle on armyforge (spotted and fixed a couple of mistakes too, LS storms limited to 1, elite and support detachments dont unlock aircraft slots)

I've come up with the following list to try out:

Assault - chaplain - 225
Assault - 175
Thunderhawk - 200
Devastators - Supreme commander, hunter, razorback, rhinos - 450
Devastators - drop pods - 250
Assault Vanguard Veterans - chaplain - 300
Storm Eagle - 150
Storm Eagle - 150
Strike Cruiser - 200
Warhound - 275
Warhound - 275
Thunderbolts - 175
Thunderbolts - 175

Vanguard vets and empty assault marines go in thunderhawk, chaplain assaults go in storm eagle, usual strike cruiser and devs alpha strike to target AA, backed up by warhounds, thunderhawk formations go after tougher formations, assault marines soak the casualties, vets are collected by empty storm eagle if they survive, alternatively storm eagle recycles lone surviving stand of assault marines who have heroically massacred such potent targets as artillery batteries, rangers, sentinels and if they're feeling particularly brave, a couple of OAPs on a day trip... Tbolts harass stuff and go after broken formations, also go on CAP if facing air assaulting eldar/orks/marines etc

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 Post subject: Re: Raven Guard 2015-02-16
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:46 pm 
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kyussinchains wrote:
okay I've had a fiddle on armyforge (spotted and fixed a couple of mistakes too, LS storms limited to 1, elite and support detachments dont unlock aircraft slots)


?


Code:
(Any one aircraft may be fielded per each detachment, elite detachment or support detachment.)


Code:
Storms    Add any number of Land Speeder Storms, up to the number required to transport the formation    +25 points each

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 Post subject: Re: Raven Guard 2015-02-16
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:36 pm 
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Yes, armyforge limits you to 1 storm nd support/elite dont unlock aircraft so I have fixed it so it matches the army list :)

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 Post subject: Re: Raven Guard 2015-02-16
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:39 pm 
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Ah, I thought you changed them TO that. Adam just hasn't pushed the new JSON yet, gotcha.

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 Post subject: Re: Raven Guard 2015-02-16
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:47 pm 
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yeah sorry, it should be live on the development site now: http://adam77.github.io/snapfire/war/index.html

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 Post subject: Re: Raven Guard 2015-02-16
PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:26 pm 
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Hi,

I’ve been thinking to feedback the Ravenguard list for some time now but haven’t gotten to it until now. I have my SM army painted up as Ravenguard since i liked the description of their guerilla hit-and-run combat doctrine. Thanks for all the work you put in to the list, I really like the theme with smaller formations, elite scouts etc. and sorry if some of the feedback is not all positive :)

From my perspective Codex Astartes is the best army in the game when it comes to air assaults. That’s the main focus of most Marine players. To me it feels like the theme of the Ravenguard list is also based a lot around air assaults, and to make a list that is better at air assaults than the Astartes seems like a slippery slope…

A Thunderhawk filled with Vanguard Assault Veterans (two units with chaplains) can take out almost any formation in the game. The fact that they come in a Thunderhawk makes the problem worse since it’s almost impossible to shoot down a Thunderhawk. This is a valid defense against other similarly powerful air assaults like e.g. a Vampire Raider, which can also be loaded with some pretty nasty assault troops.

I haven’t had the time yet to test it out but I think the army below (3000 points) might be very powerful:
4 * Tacticals in Drop Pods – To soften up the air assault targets and maybe remove some AA
4 * Vanguard assault veterans
4 * Thunderhawks
Space ship

You drop the Tacticals and follow up with air assault. Depending on the opposition you load the assault marines into two or more Thunderhawks. If you have empty Thunderhawks they can pick up the assault marines and repeat the process in turn 2.

Drop Pods
In the Astartes list Scouts could originally use drop pods. This was later removed since there were people dropping too much death wind on their opponents too cheap. I think Ravenguard with their 200 points Tactical formations might trigger a comeback for the death wind tactic.

Scouts
According to the Ravenguard backstory they use a lot of Scouts. So making the Scout unit a lot less powerful, by removing their transports, than other Marine Scouts without reducing the cost seems a bit unfair. How about lowering the price for Scouts to 125 points, add Rhinos as an upgrade for +25 points and keep the Storm upgrade as is. Or if you feel that this will make the Storm transport option too cheap, bump it to +30 points per Land Speeder Storm.

Storm Eagle
I think it’s great to add another air transport option apart from the Thunderhawk. The problem is that it will always be compared to a Thunderhawk, and in that comparison I fear that the Thunderhawk will always win. The Thunderhawk takes 8 hits to kill on average, while the Storm Eagle goes down from on average 2 hits. The Thunderhawk has double the transport capabilities. Due to its superior armor the Thunderhawk can be placed to take the first hits in an air assault firefight to shield weaker units. The Thunderhawk inflicts slightly more damage in an assault. And so on… The Storm Eagle can do more AT damage, but I would argue that it is still outgunned by the Thunderhawk against all targets except pure AT units. The Vengeance Launcher will hit on +6 most of the time (infantry tend to stay in cover) so its effect will be quite small.

Maybe the main problem here is the Tunderhawk and not the Storm Eagle, but if the Storm Eagle should be a viable option I think it needs a boost since it will always be compared to buying a Thunderhawk for 50 points extra. Having a 1DC air transport is very risky business. 1DC means the risk of a single AA shot taking it down is too big. Considering that you (at least where I play) cant CAP CAP, the Storm Eagle would be an easy target for enemy interceptors. Sure you can operate within friendly air cover. But to be honest Space Marine ground-based AA is expensive and not shooty enough to scare of enemy interceptors with their eyes on 350+ points & 2 activations… Increasing the Storm Eagle to 2DC and keeping the 4+ armor would put its survivability on par with the Tau Orca (also priced at 150 points). Compared to the Orca the Storm Eagle has more firepower but only one third of the Orcas transport capabilities. I know increasing the DC gives other survivability benefits on the ground based on TSKNF, but not doing so I fear will make the Storm Eagle too vulnerable in the air and consequently not a viable transport option. If used as a pure bomber it needs more firepower…

Another option to make it more attractive compared to a Thunderhawk could be to give the Vengeance Launcher Ignore Cover and/or add Small Arms, EA(+1) to make the Storm Eagle more powerful in an air assault? Powerful but very fragile… If kept at 1DC, 5+ RA and fighter-bomber class might be an option, this way you could jinx at 4+ RA to save your precious cargo if the enemy scores too many lucky hits?

Thanks for reading.

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 Post subject: Re: Raven Guard 2015-02-16
PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:49 pm 
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test: viewtopic.php?f=84&t=32762&p=617664#p617664

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 Post subject: Re: Raven Guard 2015-02-16
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:48 am 
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Took Ravenguard to a tournament, apart from bad dice and beeing unskillful with Droppods, this was my list:

Tacticals (3x)
Vanguard Veteran (1x)
Devastators (1x)
Terminator w. Chaplain (1x)
Thunderhawk (4x)
Stormeagle (1x)
Thunderbolts (2x)
Strike Cruiser dropping everything

Played against Tyranids, no Chance for him to win despite 3 Zoantrophes and a Dom. 3-0

Played against World Eaters, 8 flak engines, hell blades and hell talons, tougher game but overall hard for him to win

Ghazgkull Ork list was last with a metric ton of Landas and Scorchas, bad rolling (all air killing only a single Gunwaggon in 2 turns) saw me losing 1-2 cause I failed to properly estimate my oponents position in turn 3 for my pods.

Conclusion:

This build is pretty broken and should not be possible nor encouraged. If I would had the miniatures I would have swapped the Vanguard for more Tacticals and the Storm Eagle for a fifth Thunderhawk.

It was not really fun to play with nor to play against this list. A completely "off table" list may look thematic but in the end is deeply unsatisfying for the enemy just moving around for two turns until the hammer strikes down in turn 3, ending the game by forcing the 14 activations, 5 pods, barrage and massive air into their face.

I propose a 1/3 limitation on Navy, Thunderhawk, Stormeagle and Cruiser.

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