Sounds like we are roughly in agreement then:-
- Two 'offensive weapon' dice (either as a single weapon with 2x AT/AP)
- Defensive AA being a turret with AA5+ (preferred to wing-mounted L/R weapons which will inevitable echo the THawk)
- single shot weapon (probably AT)

I had not seen the Avenger stats before now. They are found in the Skitarii legions and are as follows:-

Avenger Strike Fighter
Aircraft - Fighter Bomber 6+ — —

Weapons
Avenger Bolt Cannon . . . . . . 30cm 2x AP3+ / AT5+, Fixed Forward
Lascannon . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 30cm 2x AT5+ / AA5+, Fixed Forward
Heavy Stubber . . . . . . . . . . . 15cm AA6+, Rear Arc

Notes: none.

Two for 225

This means that a formation of these are considerably better than TBolts as they kick out 8x AT/AP shots and 4x AA5+ shots at 30cm, in short a good example of what I feel is OTT . . .

Well this isn't a discussion of the Avenger Attack Flyer but OTT is dependent in list where they exist only in AMTL which has the playtests presumably to not be OTT. However I agree in another list they very well could be.

That's a large reason why I'd suggest Fire Raptors, if included, being singletons, taking up a support section, and being limited to a 1:1 on the assault transports.

So a theoretical Fire Raptor gunship in this list (ostensibly named Hawk Lords fire raptor) would be:
AC/Fighter-Bomber
Armor: 5+, RA
Avenger bolt cannon 30cm 2x AT5+/AP3+ FFw
Rockets 45cm 2x AT5+, FWD, single shot
Heavy Bolters AA 5+

Yes?

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Your stats are just about reasonable for the Gunship;
- the 5+ and RA make it quite robust, though equivalent to the Eldar Phoenix.
Suggest considering 4+ rather than 5+RA - though not ruling it out

- 4x shots may be a bit OTT, even though 2 are single shot.
Suggest starting with 1x Rocket (single shot)

- With the above stats, formation of 2x a/c could be roughly 225 - 250

Does that sound reasonable?

I had 125 each in my brain so that matches up well. Folks, anyone brave enough to give them a whirl should fee free for 4+ OR 5+ RA and give feedback.

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After this kerfuffle it's time to come back here and reevaluate how to handle this twin linked AMB monster since there's no consensus to be had that isn't going to result as amazeballz weapons.

Considering this thing is basically two AMB strapped on a storm eagle with the entire cargo compartment retrofitted into dakka-fuel holders I'm inclined to view this as being represented as less absolute attacks in EA and instead giving an ability to the weapon. To be honest the tactics of the thing is really a bullet hose therefore adding perhaps adding Disrupt is a more balanced form of the weapon. After all, that much shooting, even if no one gets killed, is going to be a psychological hit as well as make you dig in far more than typical.

The other approach is to completely ditch this as AC and instead become a Close Support skimmer or support craft along the lines of Storm Ravens, Vultures and Valkyries.

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Yeah funny you bring that up. We have some alternate rules for the Epic: Battle Tactics supplement and there's exactly that type of thing allowed for VTOL styled craft to allow them to become AV Support Craft instead of AC during the game. It'd be a sweeping rule change to try to introduce it for general use probably (more than resetting the aircraft stats as we've both lamented about! )

I'm intending to reduce the power of the rockets and drop one-shot already. It's less record keeping and you're right: if it has a disengage move it then it rearms. One rocket thingy it is!

Fireraptor Cannons AP4+ AT4+ disrupt 30cm FFw
Storm Bolter AA5+ 15cm
Rockets 30cm AT6+ FFw

Think that's correct for storm bolter AA (correct me if I'm off)

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Yeah sorry. Switching game systems on you! LOL
Fixed forward

Yeah it's a mini-supplement some of the locals and I am working on and a bunch of tactica from people like SG. Think a bunch of weird alternate rules for laughs ir to put a spin on the game in another way for fun non tournament play. Things like Titan shock, fighting under ground, heavy tanks, etc.

I'll shoot you some stuff on it

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0.2 updated in OP
Talon Wing formations separated out and opened for use as 1:1 to the heavy and air assaulting formations. Fire Raptors added as part of the Fast Attack formations

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Hi, I've been painting up a Starship Troopers force of Mobile Infantry for use with Epic.
There being no such force within the Games Workshop canon, I'm in the market for a 'counts as' list.

The mobile infantry are characterised by: armour, missiles, flamers, jump jets.
Ability to insert from orbit into battle via capsules, hence 'cap troopers', and
no use of tanks. The jump pack devastators are a real drawcard for your Hawk Lords list.

So some questions about the list. On a first reading, before committing myself to battle.
In no particular order.

(1) The Hawk Wing Devastator formation comes with a Marine Captain and a Commander upgrade.
This would let me add a Librarian (say) to the formation. With only 0-1 of the formation this is
not very abusable, but was it your intention?

(2) Were you expecting that the position of entrance for formations with units of speed < 35 cm,
coming in from the table edge, should be marked ahead of time? At deployment time?

This off-table deployment protects the formation from enemy action, until it is activated and enters the board.
For my purposes that is a little like them (self) planet-falling onto the edge of the battle field.
That is a nice effect for trying to simulate orbital insertion without the immediate local need for a spacecraft.

(3) Could a scout formation set up on overwatch (in the garrison phase) within the deployment zone?

(4) There does not seem to be much in the way of Fighter support for the force.
Only one 15 cm AA5+ FxF on the Storm Talon Gunship (Fighter-Bomber).
No defensive/offensive AA on the Storm Eagle Assault Transport (Fighter-Bomber).

I'd have thought that some form of air superiority was essential for an Air Cav style list.
Especially important if you (as in I) am taking a light (no armour) style force.

(5) The Rapid Strike rule implies that no garrisons may be set up on table. Is that you intention?
My impression of the list is that scout formations should NOT be garrisoned forward of the deployment zone.

(6) The Storm Eagle assault transport seems very under-whelming for 150 points each.
The use of the MW in a firefight would only be a factor if the transport landed as part of an assault.
The Eagle only carries half the payload of a Thunderhawk, can take only one hit, has weaker armour,
no defensive AA fire and a much shorter range main weapon. By comparison the Fire Raptors are awe.

Hope that is not too many questions, . . . anyone got any game reports?

Yeah the MI would be AWESOME to do. Sounds from the rest of your post you're planning on more the Heinlein style MI vs the admittedly fun but silly Verhoeven take on them.


Yeah they're rather the thing from the official fluff that made it for me.


Please clarify. Sounds like you're saying you could end up with two characters in the formation. Yes that's doable albeit a very expensive one (typically ends up being BTS) though double leader is nice (-2 BM extra on rally). If instead you're meaning the 0-1 restriction, that's more based on the fluff. They've got a very limited set of these artificer jump packs and this list is representative of a complete do-or-die mission by the hawk lords where the Hawk Wing comes out in force and would be ostensibly be lead by a veteran commander.


Oh good one. At activation time. You're paying for the extra distance so it seems fitting, especially as they're "springing the traps" so to speak so it reflects (or I am hoping so) the Space Marine competency of superior tactics.


EXACTLY!


Right now scouts cannot garrison. I need to make that more clear. This is one are where the list likely will eventually allow but I tend to start off restricted and provide buffs as needed from reports.


Aye the Marines as a faction whole have limited air superiority assets right now (really ridiculous for a super elite independent force). I' fully anticipate the Xiphon Interceptor showing up in this list.


Aye you've got it right but I like your concept of them infiltrating on T0 from the table edge. I'd suggest that we consider that an optional rule (please indicate if batrepping). I doubt it's going to be game breaking. I'm expecting we'll find that traditional garrisons are going to be fine in the end.


are Awesome?
Yeah, again, start conservative and buff from testing. The benefit of the eagle is that you're not always putting all your eggs in one basket. Also don't forget that you get self-planetfall T1 so they're immune to AA which goes a long way. They logically need to find a cost/benefit ratio somewhere right between the storm raven and the TBrick. There's much points adjustments I expect we'd see needed from testing.

Unfortunately in the heresy lists they're markedly different being WE (done so that they can carry a primarch). However their 40k stats are no where near TBrick levels (and lack structure points) so they're kinda an off duck and the aerospace rules of the EA are the weakest part of the game.

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Absolutely, Heinlein all the way.

My question was whether you could get to characters in the formation. Which you answered; yes, but it costs the points so OK.

I was going to write awesome. But then thought more Shock and Awe, so just put awe, . . . ambiguously.


Well they are less than half a Thunderhawk in terms of capability. A slightly smaller basket which may be worth some points, I'll concede. The Thunderhawk can also self-planetfall in Turn 1. The Blood Angels Storm Raven seems to be 50 points. What about 100 points each? And some sort of AA to justify the the Fighter Bomber grading, for 125 points?

They also currently require an Air Assault or Support Formation on the 1:1 limit which limits their use of a Fast Attack themed army. Not a problem for most people I'd imagine, but a challenge for me with a fast infantry only army style.

At this point value I couldn't see myself taking the Storm Eagles at all. Even for a testing game.

Well give her an outing then at 125 and go heavy on them and see how your opponent feels. If you throw a 15cm AA then she's likely going to need to be a Bomber so she can't intercept.

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Have been looking over the Raven Guard list and have been adding in Landspeeders to formations as part of test builds.

Here in the Hawk Lords list you have Landspeeders as an upgrade to the Assault Detachments. But no matching entry in the Upgrades section. Were they your intention or a cut and paste legacy? I'd like to add them (along with their automatic planetfall - here the turn one self-planetfall version) along the lines of the Raven Guard list.