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Sautekh Necrons small structure change idea.
Poll ended at Sun May 10, 2015 3:39 am
Keep it the way it is. 67%  67%  [ 4 ]
Switch the list representation of Doomsday Arcs with Annihilation Barges and vice versa. 33%  33%  [ 2 ]
Have Doomsday Arcs only available to warriors mounted in ghost Arcs. 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 6

Doomsday Arcs; Powerful ranged units = list imballance?

 Post subject: Doomsday Arcs; Powerful ranged units = list imballance?
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2015 3:39 am 
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I like the niche that Necrons in NetEA are FF specialists with the portals, however I've been struggling with balancing the inclusion of Doomsday Arcs as they add a powerful ranged weapon option as a support formation. I've come up with an idea that may both add more dimension to the Sautekh list in terms of lists and strategies and make non-portal lists a more viable option.

I propose that the Doomsday Arc be included either as a upgrade for only warriors mounted in Ghost Arcs or even just a juxtaposition between Annihilation barges and Doomsday Arcs. Meaning Annihilation Barges will be an option to take 4 plus upgrades and doomsday arcs will be only an upgrade choice taken by Phalanx infantry.

This will make the choice to take warriors mounted in ghost Arcs a more viable option. The more warriors in Ghost Arcs you take to get the doomsday arcs the less points you spend on portals/formations dependant on portals. Was also considering giving them back their MW shot then as its much more consistent with the fluff.

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 Post subject: Re: Doomsday Arcs; Powerful ranged units = list imballance?
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2015 5:39 am 
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I haven't had a chance to play Necrons yet, but in theory I prefer the list as it is now.
If the Doomsday Arcs had to be attached to other units you'd be forced to have them moving and shooting all of the time- this goes against their background (in 40k if they move and shoot their weapon becomes much worse). Either that, or you'd be wasting the potential of whatever they are attached to.


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 Post subject: Re: Doomsday Arcs; Powerful ranged units = list imballance?
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2015 5:54 am 
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I like the idea of it being macro, but not the others ;)

As mentioned by Geep, they are long range gun platforms, that if they move their shot becomes horrid. If you want to change it up and make it more flully to 40k 28mm my suggestion is:


Give it speed of 15cm
60cm range

AP/AT4+ OR
MW4+

And in notes say if sustaining fire order is given, it uses the MW attack instead.

If that's to much, id vote for keeping it as it! :)


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 Post subject: Re: Doomsday Arcs; Powerful ranged units = list imbalance?
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2015 7:51 am 
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I don't think making them an upgrade is a good choice. You'd probably never see more than one per warrior formation, and that would just be for placing BM turn 1 or perhaps 2.
I see two problems. There's the issue of upgrades version number of activations. A warrior formation with ghost arks is not expensive, but still not a cheap formation. Adding upgrades/pts to that will cut activation count.
Secondly like Geep says the main purpose of the warrior formation is FF-fighting, which makes adding the doomsday arks counterintuitive.

Taking the range down to 60 cm, is a small nerf that I'd be in favor of. Perhaps reducing the speed as well. That would make it harder/prevent them from attacking the enemy deployment zone turn 1 at least.


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 Post subject: Re: Doomsday Arcs; Powerful ranged units = list imbalance?
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2015 11:05 am 
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I don't really agree with the idea that they would be moving and shooting all the time. On the board when I have used mounted warriors, generally they function as a defensive formation. They are decent in FF and regenerate like crazy so are well suited to sit and defend objectives. They aren't quite fast enough to be an effective agressive formation. An opponent can usually prevent them from assaulting directly and usually anticipate them being used to support an assault. The Arcs get targeted with AT fire and if even one dies they are stuck back at the 15cm. Not that this is very different from other transported units I suppose. But they can't March so it's not like you'd hide them then dash for the blitz or something like a tactical squad. They are generally just crippled and then avoided and left until late game to be dealt with if necessary (if they are sitting on an objective).
If they had a Doomsday or two I can see your point Borka that while they aren't overly expensive at the moment they might be more prohibitive adding in say another 100 -125 points. But in continuing with role mounted warriors seem to fall into on the field if they had the added ranged firepower they would be quite annoying and force your opponent to deal with them sooner. I suppose this would also depend in the force you are playing against, eg. Orks who have large numbers and would just ignore them anyways when possible.
Applying the same logic though I can't see anyone taking many if any Annihilation barges either as they currently stand.

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 Post subject: Re: Doomsday Arcs; Powerful ranged units = list imballance?
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2015 2:13 pm 
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That being said, are you guys happy with how the formations of Warriors in Ghost Arcs are performing? It could also be that they need some adjustment.

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 Post subject: Re: Doomsday Arcs; Powerful ranged units = list imballance?
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2015 11:16 pm 
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I do agree with Borka that they should be kept out of being an upgrade.

I haven't gotten my game in yet (really shooting for Weds) but to make them more appealing then just porting in, make the FF a 4+ or give them back the 2 shots. Warriors themselves have a 4+ FF and the Ghost Ark has the guns of two stands worth. Either makes sense to me


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 Post subject: Re: Doomsday Arcs; Powerful ranged units = list imballance?
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2015 11:37 pm 
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2xAP5/AT6 already included. It's hard to give them much more and keep the points down. This is just an idea I had and figured I'd get everyone's opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: Doomsday Arcs; Powerful ranged units = list imballance?
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2015 11:43 pm 
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Do you believe that Ghost Arks are underpowered, or are you simply concerned that they may be since few people use them? If the latter, a large contributing factor is probably model availability. There are many monoliths and monolith proxies out there, so it's easy to make a teleporting army. I know of no current Ark models, and not everyone is willing to convert, so it makes sense that these guys aren't seeing much use.

I agree with Scourn99 that improving the Firefight of Ghost Arks makes sense (1x5+ does seem strangely weak), though I have no idea if it's really needed.


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 Post subject: Re: Doomsday Arcs; Powerful ranged units = list imballance?
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 12:34 am 
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Geep wrote:
Do you believe that Ghost Arks are underpowered, or are you simply concerned that they may be since few people use them? If the latter, a large contributing factor is probably model availability. There are many monoliths and monolith proxies out there, so it's easy to make a teleporting army. I know of no current Ark models, and not everyone is willing to convert, so it makes sense that these guys aren't seeing much use.

I agree with Scourn99 that improving the Firefight of Ghost Arks makes sense (1x5+ does seem strangely weak), though I have no idea if it's really needed.


Ghost Arcs I think are actually quite good at the moment. They are actually one of the best troop transports in the game for their points. Its not so much about making them better its about making the formation as a whole better. I think the sweet spot is about 250-300 points for a good core formation and I don't want to keep buffing the Arcs to make them better to make the formation better. If the concensus is that the mounted warrior formation is fine how it is I'm fine with that.

Clearly everyone so far likes the doomsday Arcs as a separate formation. Though my original suggestion was only in part to make the mounted warrior formations more desirable it was also because I'm wary of long ranged weaponry in a list that was suppose to have lack of ranged weapons (or so I always viewed it) as its balance point for having amazing such amazing FF capabilities. I have had some push back from my opponents about it so am just trying to find some middle ground.

Any battle reports with Ghost/Doomsday arcs would be greatly appreciated and would really like to hear your opponents point of view as well.

Annihilation Barges seem to be out of place as an upgrade also. I just figured that doomsday Arcs would be taken as they would make more useful addition to the mounted warrior formation than Annihilation barges.

I'll get some more play testing in very soon and post up some more reports. Looking forward to more input also.

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 Post subject: Re: Doomsday Arcs; Powerful ranged units = list imballance?
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 3:31 am 
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My Mistake. The list I have printed has slashes through a lot, including the x2 shots from the Ghost Arks. I do agree with Geep that since the model is hard to come by, aside converting (which I plan to do next, just need to get the things for the "ribs").

I agree with you that Annihilation Barges barges don't really fit currently. Besides again, models needed for it, id rather the points be else where for what it does. The Triarch Stalkers take their place IMO. Rather take MW attacks. And incase CC it is +1 better.

Weds is my slotted day to get a game in with the necrons, so ill use the arks and let you know!


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 Post subject: Re: Doomsday Arcs; Powerful ranged units = list imballance?
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 11:34 am 
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If you;re concerned about them having additional flexibility and power for limited loss, you could always remove the portals ;)

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