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NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 1.1 [Developmental]

 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 0.5 [Experimental]
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:09 am 
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Games have been good, very close so far. But it's been me trying to stay alive. The warriors having a +5 is hard to keep alive, but having to get close to do almost anything you really need to go all in or nothing when teleporting your mono units. I've been using 3mono/2obelisk strong units and they always felt like just a delivering mechanism because they were broken almost 100% of the time the last 3 games. I did win the last 3 games...but only from dice rolls going my way in situations where i needed to retain. Uphill battle for sure.

Most opponents thought Monoliths should be DC 2 with maybe a 5+ Living Metal....everyone said I should hide more...but when you realize you only have a 15cm move and 15cm range from warriors they understand the difficulty of teleporting and HOPING get to go first AND get 2 activations. But its been fun in a challenging way.

We were curious if you take a Tomb Spider and the rest of the unit gets wiped out....the tomb spider being fearless does not die in some situations. Does this mean I can bring back warriors even if the spider is the only unit remaining from the original formation after having been broken and fled from comabt? We played it as though I could, thinking the spider is an add on unit and thus the original formation has "necron"...which means someone can return. Correct or do you have to have a unit with the "Necron" ability still alive from a given formation to bring any others back?

The night scythes with portal really swayed the battle in each game, but not overpowered...you really have to take chances, just like with Monos to have things go your way. I felt sometimes completely outgunned and out maneuvered (against Tau, DKoK recently). I remember when the list first came about there was alot more MW shots with the newer units. Will be interesting to try out all the other units (Barges) when we can find the models at a some point.

Some players, including myself, were confused as to if the ENTIRE army cannot March or only units with the "Necron" ability. It's confusing to have an ability with the same name as the army itself...as some units like Tomb Blades are supposed to be super speedy, whereas I can totally see regular warriors slowly lumbering up the field. Could help reduce confusion by changing the name of the "Necron" rule to something else. We had alot of does that mean Necrons with "Necron" or ALL necrons in the entire list. No one here has faced crons before so we're all learning the rules as well along the way =)

cheers

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 0.5 [Experimental]
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 2:54 am 
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Thanks for the feed back!

To answer your questions:
1. In the situation with the tomb spider you played it correctly. The units with the "Necron" ability are allowed to regenerate if the formation (regardless of what's left) isn't completely destroyed. Tomb spiders for this can be quite useful as they have fearless. Just have to watch out because they are AV units and can be singled out with AT fire.

2. Yes there were more MW weapons in the original list. Several were trimmed out like the Bombers and the Doomsday Arcs because during testing they were shown to be quite potent at range. This made the list very powerful as the Necron player could both choose engagements and deliver substantial firepower at range. The approved list carved out a niche making them very effective FF specialists and giving them a very effective delivery method to pick engagements. With the original Sautekh list there wasn't much in the way of fallibility. We decided to scale it back a bit in terms of ranged potency and as a result we reduced some point totals as well. Necrons in my mind has always been more of a horde army than a specialist army like Marines, though I guess its actually a hybrid. There is still deadly firepower in the war engines section, Pylons, Tesseract vault, the Aeonic Orb and the doom scythes are potent too. Any chance you could post or PM me the list make up you have been fielding?

3. The Implacable Advance rule (no marching) applies to all formations in the list. The Ponderous rule only applies to units that specifically list "ponderous" in the notes section.

4. As for the units of monoliths, I have found in my games that most of the time the formations of monoliths are broken. More so with the added broken portal rule. Because of that I changed the unit structure a little allowing for the use of 4 monoliths and slightly reducing the cost of the formation in the change from version 0.4 to 0.5. You can make the formations of monoliths up to 7 units strong, its a little pricy but that's large by most AV formation standards. You have to remember they have more range than you think though, you can still do a double move with the monoliths (30cm) and shoot (very beneficial to prime your target with BMs prior to engagement). The formation coming out of the portals on the monoliths can assault move another 15cm and they generally want to stay out of CC and in FF range for the assault giving you another 15cm. That's 60cm lethal range from the original teleport location of the monolith formation. On top of that if the monolith unit is broken before delivering the troops it can consolidate another 15cm closer if you desire. That's only for the warrior/immortals. If you are using stalkers, praetorians, tomb blades, or destroyers its even farther effective range. I was thinking about how monoliths would function with a DC2 as well but that is a HUGE change for the list as I need to maintain consistency with the approved list.

As for the comments about the night scythes yes they can be a little risky but it is a significant advantage to be able to place troops pretty well where ever you like. They use to be able to fire at and prime the unit being assaulted with BMs as well, but all my opponents felt this was too effective (and it was).

As for the armour value of the warriors. Yeah the 5+ makes them a little vulnerable but its a hard thing to balance with them being able to regenerate so easily. But you can add a whole host of other fun units to the formation to increase its potency, Wraiths are a little expensive but very powerful as they have the First strike. If you have a chance to try a C'tan shard, I badly need more input on them. Also Tomb spiders and the C'tan count as giving cover when being shot at (-1 to hit) if the warriors are in base to base contact with them (though no more than 2 infantry per DC of the WE or AV unit). If you are looking for a little more sturdiness from your troops try fielding more Immortals, they are quite potent with the 4+ armour, 3+ FF. There is also the option to field the unit in Ghost Arcs. They are relatively tough as transports go and have leader! This means that your marshal actions will generally regenerate all your warriors. Makes them excellent for holding/contesting objectives.

The "Necron" ability is how it was labeled on the original approved list we just kept the same convention. I remember doing a double take at the list to clarify that as well.

Glad you are playing the list and happy to answer any questions! My next game is coming up in 2 weeks I'll be sure to post the battle report.

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 0.5 [Experimental]
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 10:27 pm 
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Awesome write up! We really appreciate it. We actually have one fellow running the older Cron list and Im using this newer version. Our next game is against each other in the league, will give you the list I run and feedback. Really appreciate the write up, helps clarify and offer potential things I had not thought off.

I actually do like the risk reward challenge of Crons versus my Iron Warriors, who are very strong...in a ablanced way...but still more point and click than this. Helps flex the brain muscles and re-learn the other Epic rules that I don't get a chance to use as often.

-V

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 0.5 [Experimental]
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 10:55 pm 
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I would be very interested to hear how that goes. I think you will have an advantage with the larger cheaper units and the fliers. Should be able to dictate the engagements using your fliers provided you have his pylons locked down. Should be fun and challenging!

I really enjoy the risk reward also, forces you to be aggressive. haha Definitely not a safe army to field, have to adapt your strategy with almost every activation. But when it comes together it really comes together. Have had a few games where I utterly annihilated my opponent. Though when it goes wrong it can really go wrong too. Keeps things exciting.

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 0.5 [Experimental]
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:25 pm 
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New Battle report posted:
viewtopic.php?f=70&t=26977&p=561084#p561084

The Orb is possibly too powerful at 600 points with the portal. Though I want to keep the two harvester engines the same price. Potentially dropping the portal and keeping the point totals would be sufficient.

Everything else functioned well but not overly so. The broken portal rule didn't have much of an impact as the list played was a hybrid half portal half mounted warrior force.

The Ghost arc shooting was about what I expected and was reasonable with the 15cm 2x AP5/AT6.

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 0.5 [Experimental]
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2015 5:47 am 
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I'm sure this has come up before, but I don't think I've seen an answer- Why is the character upgrade a 'Canoptek', rather than a 'Cryptek'? Does anyone know of good models to represent a Cryptek/Canoptek?


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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 0.5 [Experimental]
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2015 7:29 am 
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Geep wrote:
I'm sure this has come up before, but I don't think I've seen an answer- Why is the character upgrade a 'Canoptek', rather than a 'Cryptek'? Does anyone know of good models to represent a Cryptek/Canoptek?

That's just a typo from when I made the list. Should of course have been cryptek. Funny that I never saw that.


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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 0.5 [Experimental]
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2015 11:43 am 
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Borka wrote:
Geep wrote:
I'm sure this has come up before, but I don't think I've seen an answer- Why is the character upgrade a 'Canoptek', rather than a 'Cryptek'? Does anyone know of good models to represent a Cryptek/Canoptek?

That's just a typo from when I made the list. Should of course have been cryptek. Funny that I never saw that.


Haha Oops, I'll make that change right now. Also noticed a few errors/omissions in the V0.5 Armyforge file. Fixed those and sent the updated file as well.

As for the model to represent the Cryptek no unfortunately nothing straight up. I used a Endite Assault troop and modified him with some green stuff to make his spine a little taller and altered his axe blade to look more like a staff.

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 0.5 [Experimental]
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 7:54 pm 
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Id drop the portal. From its weapon, it would consume to much energy to also portal guys in IMO. Plus its range is huge, so I dont see much use of the portal being used as more often then not id want to keep it as far back as I can.


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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 0.5 [Experimental]
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 8:43 pm 
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scourn99 wrote:
Id drop the portal. From its weapon, it would consume to much energy to also portal guys in IMO. Plus its range is huge, so I dont see much use of the portal being used as more often then not id want to keep it as far back as I can.


From a fluff point of view the "Orb" is a harnessed star.... I don't think it will be hurting for available power ;D . I found having the portal on the Aeonic Orb very very good. See the after thoughts on my most recent Battle report.

Trying the keep the Orb out of harms way and using it for its ranged attack only is good in theory, however there are many ways to deposit troops beside it to threaten it. Its generally a very ripe target as its only 6 DC, it has nothing in the way of shields and its almost always going to be your BTS, so its worth a victory point. Also generally you are going to keep it near the blitz as a blitz guard. This means that you need to protect it with a buffer of troops/vehicles to prevent air assaults and teleporting attacks against it.

Generally when dealing with large war engines the strategies are to either ignore it as its a large point investment for your opponent and work on killing the smaller units to cripple their activation count or pour everything into it to kill it and go for the victory point. Trying to do both generally doesn't work... Unless you have something like a deathstrike missile. Having a portal means that you can counter either strategy. Start with the screening formation around your Orb then if it becomes apparent that the opponent is trying to just ignore it you can portal your defending formation through the Orb to the front lines as needed. If He/She is going to try to destroy it then no problem portal in another strong unit to help defend it. And don't forget about how beneficial it is to have a portal on the board that is hard to break and is sometimes out of harms way for giving your damaged infantry units a place to retreat to regenerate.

That being said it still has a lot of trouble with other large war engines with good ranged fire power, Titan lists are very hard for Necrons to deal with in general, just hope you decided to add a couple pylons that day =).

I'm worried that removing the portal will make it too vulnerable but keeping the portal means its under costed. I played a game previous to V0.4 when it didn't have a portal and it was easily defeatable with a cheap scout unit, don't under estimate the power of fast scouts with their large zone of control ;). More play testing is needed. Looking forward to hearing how you make out on Wednesday. I have a game tomorrow that I'll do a battle report for also.

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 0.5 [Experimental]
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 1:25 am 
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To me the Orb does look overcosted for firepower alone. The 12BP is great vs weak things, and for laying blast markers everywhere, but with no Ignore Cover or similar I don't think it'll do much damage (compared to the firepower of similarly pointed formations). The D6 TK is potentially great, but a 3+ to hit is a bit questionable (as a single shot from such an expensive weapon) and D6 damage is pretty unreliable (brilliant if you roll a 6, but you're just as likely to roll a 1). The ability to switch between the two firing modes is excellent. Would it suit it to remove the portal but improve the reliability of the shooting aspects (eg. drop it to an 8 BP disrupt and 2D3 TK)?


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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 0.5 [Experimental]
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 2:04 am 
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Geep wrote:
To me the Orb does look overcosted for firepower alone. The 12BP is great vs weak things, and for laying blast markers everywhere, but with no Ignore Cover or similar I don't think it'll do much damage (compared to the firepower of similarly pointed formations). The D6 TK is potentially great, but a 3+ to hit is a bit questionable (as a single shot from such an expensive weapon) and D6 damage is pretty unreliable (brilliant if you roll a 6, but you're just as likely to roll a 1). The ability to switch between the two firing modes is excellent. Would it suit it to remove the portal but improve the reliability of the shooting aspects (eg. drop it to an 8 BP disrupt and 2D3 TK)?


I like the 2D3 for the TK shot. Adding disrupt would be too much, it would have similar fire power to an Ordinatus Mars. Sustained with a large BP disrupt weapon can pretty much break any formation it shoots. Changing from 12 to 8 is only one blast marker difference. But adding disrupt is like adding 3-6 Blast markers (depending on the size of the unit). That would be much too powerful especially at 600 pts even without the portal. The portal just lends to versatility not to killing power. I also want to keep the unit stats as close to the same as possible between all the lists. lol I know but you can say well look at the warriors in the approved list with their 4+ Sv. Yeah the difference kinda bugs me too but more likely the approved list will change to 5+ with a points decrease (There have been previous lengthy discussions about this).

The other thing to remember: the real value of the Orbs BP weapon is not so much in inflicting damage, its that its very intimidating and it forces your opponent to space out his/her formations and the units in his formations. This makes it sooo much easier for your portaling infantry to perform clipping assaults with little repercussions.

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 0.5 [Experimental]
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 4:32 am 
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I like to compare the orb to the squat Cyclops. I know there's a lot that is different but really look at the value of what you get. This is how I feel the orb is a bit over costed for what it does. For pure killing, Cyclops wins as its a MW2+ base, and d6+1 TK. On top of that, it has a battle cannon, and 6 180cm one shot 2+ AT missiles. 5 DC and 4 void shields. All for 475 points. This is a thing that the enemy will want to kill and dump a lot of shots into because it can kill more then 1 thing a turn.

For 600, I feel the orb needs to do more.

Possibilities are: More DC, MW2+, d6+1TK (not sure how I feel on 2d3). Larger Range 100-120cm. Blast to be MW hits and/or IC.


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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 0.5 [Experimental]
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 5:22 am 
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Have to be careful when comparing units from other armies when looking at balance. Every army needs to have balance as a whole and you can't pick one unit and say look at this its really strong all units should be closer to this. Squats strength is in their ranged weapons and war engines. Their weakness is in their garbage troops and support formations. Compare Immortals to Squat warriors! Necrons have very powerful FF troops that can regenerate and show up anywhere on the board. They have Living Metal, lots of Fearless units, speed and decent fliers. Their ranged weapons kinda suck and so do their war engines and that shouldn't change too much. This is why buffing the Orbs firepower and the doomsday arcs is so difficult, you risk tipping the balance of the whole army. Yes they aren't great compared to units in other armies but Necrons have many things many other armies are envious of.

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Sautekh Legion (Newcrons) 0.5 [Experimental]
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 12:07 am 
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New battle report posted:
viewtopic.php?f=70&t=26977&p=561656#p561656

Slightly different battle than I usually have... Dropping marines are scary. I would have had a much rougher time if the initial Landing Craft assault hadn't gone my way. Which it shouldn't have as my opponent had +3 on me before combat resolution.

Portals -Thinking of scraping the Broken portal rule. In the half dozen games I have played with it, it has made no difference to anything. I'd like to put the portal rules back into sync with the other lists (approved Necrons and Eldar). However going back to allowing units to leave the board to go into reserves I feel is too powerful.

Sentry Pylons -They didn't really have a chance to do much before they were destroyed. How do people feel about them? They are a little odd at the moment with 10cm move. They are extremely vulnerable in assaults and the Heat Cannon version doesn't seem to be very effective. I can't see anyone taking this unit and teleporting it to with in 30cm of anything to have the heat cannon be in range. I'm thinking it would be intimidating with 4x90cm AA shots but with AA5+ they are only going to hit statistically once and they are very slow and the unit is very vulnerable. Most other races have their AA imbedded formations as upgrades. At 250pts I think we should simplify and just make them all Gauss Exterminators. Using them for their ranged shot its really just to place blast a marker, possibly 2. 4 AT5+ shots won't do that much. Looking for some input on this.

Aeonic Orb -Worked well, the portal on it didn't make much difference as I had back up portals aplenty. The 12BP shot wasn't that effective though it was great at spreading around the BMs, but when facing marines this doesn't have as much of an impact. I think its fine the way it is.

Abbatoir - Going to make a list that features this mammoth next game. Since it lost infiltration it will be a lot harder to use effectively. I feel it will fall into a similar roll as a gargant. Though a gargant can at least shoot when it has to.

Triarch Praetorians - Next game I'm going to get some more testing done on them. When I have used them in the past they have always been a massive investment for a small very specialized unit. Yes they can regenerate but taking a formation of 6 is 400pts! Am planning to test them with armour 3+.

Annihilation Barges - I think they will only very rarely be used as solely an upgrade unit. I think that the best option would be to change the structure of the Indicium Maniple (currently just Doomsday Arcs) and make it "5 units of any combination of Doomsday Arcs and Annihilation Barges" Remove the additional Doomsday Arc upgrade but keep the command barge. I think the doomsday arcs since they lost the MW and small arms +1 really aren't worth 75pts each. Though at 50pts I'd like to drop the range to 60cm for the Arcs. Let me know what you think.

Tomb Blades I'd really like to give these a go but there are no proxies even close that I know of. I think they would be hugely helpful because of their speed and low cost. I often find that near the end of turn 3 I have no fast units that can make that final sprint to claim and contest objectives. This usually costs me a victory point, I have been trying to make it work with the night scythes but that requires a lot of activations and things to line up to make it work which generally doesn't happen.

Warrior Maniple - Looking at making the mounted Warrior formations a separate formation in the list (which they already pretty much are). Thinking it would make much more sense to look like this:

Warrior Phalanx -
Six Sautekh Warrior units, one with a Lord character
Upgrades:
Replace one Lord Character with an Overlord for + 75 pts,
Add one Cryptek for +50 pts.
Add up to four warriors for +25 pts each,
Add up to three Tomb Spyders for +50 pts each,
Add up to three Wraith units for +50 pts each,
Add up to three Triarch Stalkers for +50 pts each,
Add one C’tan Shard for +125 pts. Max 1 may be taken per army.

Mounted Warrior Phalanx -
Six Sautekh Warrior units, one with a Lord character, 3 Ghost Arcs
Upgrades:
Add up to three Annihilation Barges for +50 pts each,
Add up to three Doomsday Arcs for +50 pts each,

Also would be removing the Annihilation Barge upgrade from the Immortals

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