Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 49 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Should Living Metal be changed so that it no longer ignores Macro Weapons?
Poll ended at Sat Sep 07, 2013 2:04 pm
Yes 38%  38%  [ 10 ]
No 31%  31%  [ 8 ]
Metalcurry 31%  31%  [ 8 ]
Total votes : 26

Change LM: Yea or Nay

 Post subject: Change LM: Yea or Nay
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:04 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:15 am
Posts: 1825
Location: Oslo, Norway
I've seen some reports, and I've tested a bit on my own. My current feeling is that I like the New LM better than the old, but I struggle to get any conclusions from the data on what is actually the better rule for balance.

I've seen Necrons attack into the teeth of heavily MW-armed Eldar - and lose, but not as badly as I would have thought. I don't see this as a strike against new LM, as teleporting right in front of a prepared army shouldn't really be a viable tactic.

I've lost with my Necrons against canny Eldar players who have little or no ranged MW attacks.

I've read batreps where the Necrons survive with EUK LM, and batreps where they are trounced with the old rules.

In the end I'm leaning toward adapting the changes, because a) I dislike "my special rule specifically ignores your special rule" and b) I think it's more fair for the opponent (some of his units aren't randomly worse against Necrons than he'd expect). (And c) it gives me an excuse to move Pylons out of the Phalanx section.)

But I can't really say I've found evidence either way so far, and that might mean that I should let an Approved list stay untouched.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Change LM: Yea or Nay
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:39 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:03 pm
Posts: 5779
Location: Leicester UK
While my thematic preference is for Epic-UK style (MW being worthwhile, no special rule vs special rules), From what you've said above I can't see any compelling reason why you should change it based on the testing carried out, there's clearly no strong trends emerging, which means either A) it's not as crucial as it seems or B) not enough games have been played to show a statistical trend..... I think it's probably a little of both tbh

_________________
Adeptus Astartes Army Champion, also AC for Imperial Fists and Red Corsairs

various hobby/painting threads: full of 6mm goodness

Army Forge List Co-ordinator (netEA+EpicUK)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Change LM: Yea or Nay
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:27 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 7:30 am
Posts: 1389
Location: Örebro, Sweden
Ulrik wrote:
But I can't really say I've found evidence either way so far, and that might mean that I should let an Approved list stay untouched.

I think the above is a good way of thinking.

...but I wanted to vote yes (however I accidentally voted no), because I think the living metal is weaker in the fluff nowadays then it used to be.

btw is there a way to change my vote to what I intended?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Change LM: Yea or Nay
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:40 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:15 am
Posts: 1825
Location: Oslo, Norway
Borka wrote:
btw is there a way to change my vote to what I intended?


Not that I know of or can find in the moderator controls (would feel a bit fishy for me to change it anyway).

Good thing the vote isn't binding, I can just mentally move your vote!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Change LM: Yea or Nay
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:08 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:15 am
Posts: 1825
Location: Oslo, Norway
Hena wrote:
My preferance when I still was running lists was that unless something is really, really needed then finished lists shouldn't move changed. Since you haven't found that much need for the change, I wouldn't do it.


I agree with this.

But, on the other hand, the list has a problem that really goes beyond balance - it's just obnoxious the first time you play against a well-run Necron list. The main culprit is of course portals, but that can't really be changed without some serious repercussions for the list. If Monoliths would instead not have an extra-special survival rule the opponent can at least feel confident in killing some portals if the Necron player is very aggressive with his drops. And I kinda like the new rule better.

On the gripping hand, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Change LM: Yea or Nay
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 1:00 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 6:12 am
Posts: 1331
Location: Australia
hell nay
necrons need adjusting, but it isnt adjusting downwards, and living metal is not the way to go about it.

necrons usually win their first games against an unaware opponent, but in my experience, they almost always lose every other game thereafter. certainly as a necron player I feel confident that I can beat necrons 9 times out of 10 with any halfway decent list from any other faction.

_________________
~Every Tool Is A Weapon, If You Hold It Right~


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Change LM: Yea or Nay
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:20 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:49 am
Posts: 5568
Changing living metal would cripple the big stuff in the list, which is already mostly overpriced and never taken. Who would ever take a harvester under the new rule?

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Change LM: Yea or Nay
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:03 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:15 am
Posts: 1825
Location: Oslo, Norway
Had a read through the LM feedback thread again. There were two things that stood out: 1) Nearly all the feedback is from EUK. 2) The Necrons don't look hampered at all by their version of LM.

Of course, almost all the EUK reports are from 2012. I don't know if things have changed in 2013.

For big harvesters, Abattoir at least is rad. Comparing it to a Reaver (both at 650 points with new LM):
Normal hits: Abattoir 32 to kill, reaver 28
MW hits: Abattoir 16 to kill, reaver 16
TK damage: Abattoir 16 to kill, reaver 10

Mixed fire favors the Abattoir (as there are no saveless Void Shields for AT fire to take down), while the Reaver is less vulnerable to steady attrition due to Void Shields.

The Reaver has ranged firepower the Abattoir totally lacks, but the Abattoir has a 55cm threat for assaults and is ludicrously dangerous if it reaches CC (with 40cm). Very different roles, but the Abattoir better complements taking objectives IMHO.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Change LM: Yea or Nay
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:48 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 6:12 am
Posts: 1331
Location: Australia
that doesnt cover the fact that a reaver regenerates its shields and an abattoir does not
it doesnt cover Criticals, which the abattoir is significantly more vulnerable to than the reaver
the handwave of "Reaver is better at range" does not compare how much more useful a reaver is at range, and how much more useful range is in most circumstances.
it also doesnt cover the fact that an abattoir HAS to get stuck in, and is pretty useless for atleast a turn, usually two, while a reaver can better avoid damage by skulking about.
Likewise, it ignores the much larger problem of the abbatoir's place in the list dictating among other things, the loss of anti air cover and/or supreme commanders
I've played with an abattoir using the current rules, and it got the crap kicked out of it for a fairly limited payoff in return. with the change in living metal, it would have been useless.

Living Metal is not the problem. Leave it alone. If eUK are happy with their LM changes, that's groovy and hurrah for them, they've got their own list, and can continue to use it.

_________________
~Every Tool Is A Weapon, If You Hold It Right~


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Change LM: Yea or Nay
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 1:03 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 7:27 pm
Posts: 4845
Location: Bristol
zombocom wrote:
Changing living metal would cripple the big stuff in the list, which is already mostly overpriced and never taken. Who would ever take a harvester under the new rule?

Ulrik posted in the other thread previously that if the rule was changed the Harvesters would likely see a points decrease but he wanted to get living metal sorted first.

Ulrik - there might not have been recent feedback from the Epic-UK players but you know you can go to the championship section of their website, select races and then Necrons and see the lists people used and how they did?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Change LM: Yea or Nay
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 4:25 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:15 am
Posts: 1825
Location: Oslo, Norway
Jaggedtoothgrin wrote:
that doesnt cover the fact that a reaver regenerates its shields and an abattoir does not
it doesnt cover Criticals, which the abattoir is significantly more vulnerable to than the reaver


It does cover that. The Reaver has a much worse critical than the Abattoir. Abattoir has a 25% chance of taking damage (and incidentally will also hurt anything it's currently in close combat with), while the Reaver has a 50% chance of taking damage or even self-destruct. Clear advantage Abattoir. Even if the Abattoir takes twice as many crits as the Reaver (arguable) the Reaver is still worse off.

Reaver regenerating is pretty minor unless it does a Regroup. About two extra void shields over the course of a game, and that might be generous. The Regroup option can be very good, but it does sacrifice a lot to do it.

Quote:
the handwave of "Reaver is better at range" does not compare how much more useful a reaver is at range, and how much more useful range is in most circumstances.
it also doesnt cover the fact that an abattoir HAS to get stuck in, and is pretty useless for atleast a turn, usually two, while a reaver can better avoid damage by skulking about.


I agree that it is a significant advantage for the Reaver that it can shoot (very well). I disagree that it can "skulk about", unless you want to throw away the sheer survivability of a titan that could be used to contest and claim objectives.

Quote:
Likewise, it ignores the much larger problem of the abbatoir's place in the list dictating among other things, the loss of anti air cover and/or supreme commanders


That is a problem. But that will be a problem however you look at it, and I don't think it deserves a points reduction. It's hard to fit in a 3k list, but options open up in 4k. You can get a Pylon, a Harvester and an SC in 4k, which is much less punishing.

TBH I don't mind it if big Harvesters mostly come out at 4k and above, which they do now.

Quote:
I've played with an abattoir using the current rules, and it got the crap kicked out of it for a fairly limited payoff in return. with the change in living metal, it would have been useless.


And I've played against it, thrown my entire army at it and still seen it dominate the centre of the board for the win.

Edit: An Abattoir is actually a good argument for changing LM - it's the by far toughest thing in the game, barring maybe an Imperator. It's solid enough against AT, but the way it laughs at TK and MW, isn't that a bit over the top?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Change LM: Yea or Nay
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 4:27 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:15 am
Posts: 1825
Location: Oslo, Norway
GlynG wrote:
Ulrik - there might not have been recent feedback from the Epic-UK players but you know you can go to the championship section of their website, select races and then Necrons and see the lists people used and how they did?


I know about it, but I haven't checked it in a while - I've been looking at tournament reports here on the forums, and I haven't seen any Necrons in months. I may have missed some of course - thanks for the reminder!

edit: 7 people have taken the Necrons to EUK tournaments, with a combined record of W-11 L-8 D-2. For me that indicates that EUK LM might be fine, but it's inconclusive due to how nasty Necrons are against the unprepared.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Change LM: Yea or Nay
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:49 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 6:12 am
Posts: 1331
Location: Australia
The Regroup, as an option, is a significant boost in a reavers "ability to claim objectives" likewise, the fact is, if faced with a scary amount of AT firepower, a reaver can be cautious, and still provide a significant in game effect. an Abattoir, however, cannot afford to not be doubling towards the enemy centre mass any time it's not engaging.
And, once it gets it's engagement, except against the very limited mobility armies, it will be unlikely to get a second. an abattoir will almost certainly get into an assault. it will if it's lucky, get into close combat during that assault. if it's very lucky, it will get into two assaults. a Reaver is: A: faster when it needs to be, B: more effective at impacting on the battle in every turn except the assault, and C: still pretty good in assault.

I don't think the abattoir needs a point deduction, and infact, I don't believe thats what i've suggested. what it needs, is the ability to be a supreme commander, while pylons should be available without using support slots, and a lighter AA unit and Supcom character upgrade should be available for non-warengines.
I've said it before. If you include an AA option on, say, a tomb spyder, and a necron overlord infantry option, you would suddenly relieve pressure on the war engine allocation, while simultaneously encouraging necron units to actually stay on the table instead of portaling back off immediately. this would encourage them to take larger infantry formations (that are otherwise hampered by the regroup portal move) and coupled with the "broken portals add a blast marker" you've suddenly opened up a whole range of competitive options for necrons, reduced the effectiveness of monoliths while retaining their central aspect, and all without making them worse than they already are.

Living Metal is an iconic and well tested rule, it provides survivability ONLY against higher end specialist weaponry, and not against hte majority of what actually kills tanks in game (which is massed AT firepower)

Monoliths, while incredibly hard to kill, are not nearly as effective in themselves as their equivalent MBTs (russ and raiders) and while they look scary, and put off people who can't do the differentials, they're largely irrelevant to beating necrons.


my experience with necrons is as follows:

when people havent experienced them, and havent put thought into how to defeat them, and thus, treat them like a normal army, they usually win. and they usually win by a pretty good margin
when people have played against them or watched someone else play against them and actually thought about the results instead of curling up in a ball and crying "overpowered" they almost always lose, and usually by a pretty absurd margin

I took necrons to a tournament. I won my first game. I won my second game. My third game was against an opponent who recieved advice from both my earlier opponents, and myself, and had one of the better armies to deal with it. as a result he won. It was a close game, and if i'd had another turn or two, i probably would have been able to turn it. but in the end, I lost. In losing, i gave up a significant wad of VP (because the phase out rule basically gives your opponents free VP) but i still topped the tournament charts.

afterwards, I had people complain about how scary necrons were, and how on earth do you beat them. I told them for the most part, the relatively easy tricks to doing so.

next year, i went to the tournament, and i took the same list (or something very similar)
and i lost all three games. quite significantly. at the end of the day, i came i believe second last on the tables, and gave up a good two thirds of my VP every game.

since then, I have not won a single game with my necrons. I've played against people who did not follow my Simple Plan, and beat my army the hard way, using massed firepower to kill my monoliths, and they succeeded.

Necrons win big against unprepared armies. Against prepared armies, they lose, massively. no other army in the game gives as many VP out in a draw as necrons do. in one game, my opponent only killed about 400vp worth of models. at countback, he got 2300 or so VP. because of phase out. Necrons haemorrhage VP. Necrons need to win, and they need to win big, because if they dont, they lose big. Necrons Are Not A Reliable Army

now, not every army has the reliability in their firepower to kill monoliths, and that can be scary, but in most instances, a monolith is no more difficult to kill than an expensive but fearless leman russ with poor ranged ability. Living Metal Does Not Need A Change

_________________
~Every Tool Is A Weapon, If You Hold It Right~


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Change LM: Yea or Nay
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:04 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:49 am
Posts: 5568
I agree with jaggedtoothgrin in all respects.

Is there any reason to consider this other than because epicuk have done so? They're not even going to use this list anyway. I bet the majority of yes voters are epicuk regulars.

Meh, I don't work under the netEA banner any more anyway.

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 49 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net