MW is more common than TK, which is why I think it's more important to adress the cliff edge between normal and MW hits than between TK and MW. TK(DX) is also better against WEs with this rule.

I do like your LM rule, except that I think you'd keep the TK(DX)->TK(1) part. Not a big fan of that.

Without protection from TK(dx), the big harvesters are pretty much worthless. They're already never taken, and it also makes pylons and warbarques way more fragile. Again, warbarques are almost never taken already, so why make them weaker?

Let's be honest, the problem is with monoliths, not the other units that this rule change cripples, so why not adjust their pricing or something.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Basically, the new LM becomes just a 4+ save against TK. If TK is so rare, why bother with any special rule at all?

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Less common =/= rare.

And I'm not sure if adjusting the price on Monoliths would help - you need a certain amount of portals, so more expensive Monoliths won't mean less Monoliths - it will only mean less support units. If it had much effect it would likely be to make armies even more one-dimensional.

And the big harvesters are still very durable for the points - an Abattoir takes on average 16 points of TK damage to kill, while a Reaver (also 650 points) is killed by 10, and that's if you use TK to take down the void shields. (Reducing Harvester Engines to 650 points is a part of the change.)

It's the cliff edge I really object to.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

There will be some non-linear effect anyway - the reduction of TK damage to max 1 point is just such an effect. I think it's better that TK is useful against war engines and that MW is useful against Monoliths.

Then just get rid of living metal entirely.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Or go for the variable save and don't keep the TK reduction

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Getting rid of the LM special rule would help with the image issue, it is a very negative special rule (i.e. "your special rule doesn't work against me") whereas RA is more positive even though both have the same effect of improving survivability. It's an important distinction but has nothing to do with balance. Things have to have a reasonable counter, otherwise they appear to be cheesy.

Phase out is another rule with a similar problem.

Regarding testing, if he change is being made in response to the perception rather than for balance, then playtests showing it to be an in-game problem are not really required. They are relevant in showing what the effect on balance will be by changing it though - if it is a big enough nerf then it'll need to be dealt with.

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Shrug. I personally think this is way too big a change to an approved list, especially when noone is clamouring for it, but it's your call.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

AFAIK it's the ERC's call since it's an approved list.

I've asked for a ruling at least.

Yeah and TBH there's an argument that says it will take a lot to actually fix the two things that are wrong with the list, which are both conceptual really. And thus unless you are going to change a whole bunch of things (in which case better to call it something else), you can just as well leave it completely a factor of balance.

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I really agree with this sentiment after following the discussion. If the rule is to be changed then I'd prefer a scaling system. Your opponent would hopefully feel that the stronger attack (meaning AT-MW-TK) he/she brings at least makes a difference.

I not sure how big a change it is to be considered though and I leave that to the ERC

Exactly my feelings. Either start a completely new list and leave the old one approved or leave well alone.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

But if you make a new list how would jou justify that the very same units have a different version of Living Metal?

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