I did a (Raiders) Necron army for Tabletop that's now included with the new improved version, go play playtesters, play!

Awesome!

Will install...after I get caught up on my studies in a bit.

I was at a tournament in Berlin this weekend, and got to see another Necron player in action. He took the top spot, but he has, from what I hear, won or placed in the top three of quite a few tournaments with multiple armies. Anyway.

I've also been thinking about LM (and Pylons) a bit, and I've come to some conclusions:

- I'm going to recommend that LM is changed. First, Necrons seem to do fine in the UK, which is where the majority of games with new LM have been played. I may be wrong, but my impression is that most people opposed to the change haven't actually tested it. This is a bit rude to say, but it's honestly how it appears to me. The effect seems bigger on paper than it has so far been in-game - the way to beat Necrons assaulting out of portals is to hit the warriors with overwatch fire, not to attack the portals. Second, I think the LM rule isn't very good for the game (sorry Mosc). It's a very good translation of 3rd ed 40k LM rules, but the Necrons do a lot of "sorry, that doesn't work against us". If you pay the points for MW and TK, they should do something - even against Holofields, TK and MW has an effect.

- Pylons should be moved out of the Maniple section. All Necron armies are going to take them, and they are going to come out of the Harvester allowance. I don't like them being in both sections (as the only formations in the game). More importantly, all taking a maniple slot does is force the Necrons to take more warrior phalanxes. Normally that's a good thing, but in the current list the warriors are the main units for portal assaults anyway. Allowing you to take fewer if you want leaves more options open for other formations like Destroyers and Obelisk maniples.

I really think this is a mistake.

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Have you tried a game with new LM?

Nope, but I've tried an awful lot with the old one. I'm not going to test rules I really disagree with.

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I do too, but it doesn't matter.

Ulrik, no apology needed. It's your championship, your responsibility. I do believe this will kick the army list back from approved status though, so the question is what do you want to accomplish? If the goal is to get people to play with these changes no matter what, then you need to make the 'official list' whatever you decide it to be and that will be that. Of course, that leaves the community with one less approved list.

On the other hand, if you leave the current list up and ask people to playtest the new version with LM/Pylon changes, you'll run into less people playing it.

You're in a bit of a quagmire. Good luck!

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It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

If this would kick the list back to developmental, I won't do it. Space Marines have had several changes while keeping their Approved status, so I don't think it's automatic. But I can see that it's a bigger change - if the ERC wants it to be developmental for a year, it's not worth it, and it will stay as it is.

It will have to go to a vote to the ERC. Let's see what the other ERC say and move forward with some options.

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It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Yeh, I'll probably make a formal proposal in the AC forum or some such.

I have no issues with the proposed change having played (tested) with 4+ Inv Living Metal for a long time now. Also moving Pylons to the Harvester section also seems the logical thing.

Whilst others will see this as a major change, these are two minor modifications one to a special rule and one to the army list IMO.

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Why?

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Because it's a major change to an approved list, and one that doesn't actually solve the known issues with the list.

The pylon idea has merit however.

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I must admit it doesn't seem that big to me, and the principle is still there. If you want to convince people, play some games.

True, much more toning down would need to be done to fully solve the image problem the list has. Every little helps I guess. If there are other issues by all means deal with them too. Are you referring to the one dimensional nature or something else?

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If someone were to suggest removing void shields from titans I'd expect that to move lists out of approved, and this is pretty much as big as that to me.

With regards to playtests, show me the playtests of games that show that living metal protection against MW is a major problem. The "play some games" argument works both ways; I've played loads of games and never found that protection against MW was an issue.



The one dimentional nature of the list is the main problem with the list, and this does nothing to address that.

Frankly, this change baffles me. Other than the Epic:UK desire to water down lists, I don't see anything that suggests this change is warranted.

Even if it is determined that a change is needed to living metal, this is the wrong one to make. This has just as weird a cliff edge effect as the old rule; MW and TK are equally effective against it as opposed to normal and MW being equally effective. Instead why not look at a variable save (4+ reinforced against normal, 5+ reinforced against MW, 6+ reinforced against TK). That feels better and avoids the cliff edge.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread