Tactical Command
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Living Metal feedback
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=23842		 Page 3 of 6
Author:  stompzilla [ Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Living Metal feedback
Played a game tonight with the same list as above (Except I had 4 H destroyers rather than 6 destroyers) vs Codex Astartes:

SPACESHIP [200]
Strike Cruiser

TERMINATOR [450]
4 Terminator units, Supreme Commander

ASSAULT [225]
4 Assault units, Chaplain

ASSAULT [175]
4 Assault units

THUNDERHAWK [200]
1 Thunderhawk gunship

PREDATORS [300]
2 2 x Predator Destructors, Hunter

LANDING CRAFT [350]
1 Landing Craft

LAND SPEEDER [200]
5 Land Speeder

LAND SPEEDER [200]
5 Land Speeder

THUNDERBOLTS [150]
2 Thunderbolt Fighters

WARHOUND TITAN [275]
1 Warhound Titan

WARHOUND TITAN [275]
1 Warhound Titan

Another 4-0 win to the Crons. A lot of this was due to ooponent's unfamiliarity with the Necron list. That being said, of the LM units in the army, I only lost 2 Pylons and 1 Monolith, even with so many MWs floating about.

It's a bit late now, so I'll not try and sum up. It can wait for a more sociable hour I think.

Again though, careful maneuver of Portals and the use of covering Pylons and distraction units like Flayed ones (I'm seriously starting to LOVE Flayed ones) meant that the Portals were never in any real danger and there was no chance that Necron warrior units would end up stranded off board.

Destroyers were good again but not overpowered, well worth their 300pts but certainly not a seriously dominant force.

I'll try and get down some details tomorrow.
Author:  Ulrik [ Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Living Metal feedback
Nice report!

But do remember that a player facing Necrons for the first time, if the Necron player has a faint idea of what he's doing, is almost guaranteed to be a loss.
Author:  stompzilla [ Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Living Metal feedback
It wasn't his first time. He's played against Necrons before but was a bit rusty, real life has gotten in the way of epic for a month or so and even longer for Necrons.

The loss is almost inconsequential however, as again his main goal was was to try and take on the portals and even with 2 Warhounds and 2 speeder fms only managed to kill 1.

Pylons were really useful here, keeping the marines at arms length and forcing him to planetfall his flyers rather than try and fly them on. LM on the Pylons made them no push-over to take out. One went down to a Warhound's double barrelled MW blastgun and a second went down to a terminator engagement. If LM had been any better I don't think he'd have stood a chance at taking them out and it would not have been an enjoyable game (That's the thing about LM, it's not just Portals that are effected which is why I was in favour of the EUK downgrade).
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Living Metal feedback
SC on the Terminators?
Newbie? Casual player?
Author:  stompzilla [ Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Living Metal feedback
No, it was Si, who's a grizzled vet.

To be fair, where else is the SC to go? From that list, the BTS is always going to be the terminatots and it's the safest place for the SC. I do it quite often myself with my Templars.
Author:  Ulrik [ Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Living Metal feedback
Looks like EUK performs well so far. Still looking forward to results after a few tournaments.

I'll try to test it vs a real MW-heavy list once, maybe an Eldar list with Revenants and two Scorpions (maybe with 3x3+ shots).

Perhaps not the best idea to mix playtest rules, but I'd like to do a stress test.
Author:  stompzilla [ Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Living Metal feedback
You should easily be able to out activate an Eldar army that has Revenants and 2 x Scorpions. The army I'm currently using has 12 activations. You should also be able to outrange them with Pylons, set up with good lines of sight to cover your portals, who should advance cautiously and go too balls out. I usually try and burn down at least 4 or 5 activations before commiting my monoliths.

I reckon the Crons could do very well vs the army if played right.

It's also worth noting that said Eldar army will not be a very competive tournament build as there's likely to be little AA cover or artillery, so whilst a good stress test, is not really an acurate reflection of what's likely to be encountered. Also, the marine list I played last night actually has more MWs in it than stated Eldar army and is a pretty decent tournament build (Put together with Necrons in mind - hence the strike cruiser)

I do like the thoroughness though and the idea of a stress test. Quite rare to see in an army champ (With a few notable exceptions). Good man, you. ;D
Author:  Ulrik [ Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Living Metal feedback
stompzilla wrote:
You should easily be able to out activate an Eldar army that has Revenants and 2 x Scorpions. The army I'm currently using has 12 activations. You should also be able to outrange them with Pylons, set up with good lines of sight to cover your portals, who should advance cautiously and go too balls out. I usually try and burn down at least 4 or 5 activations before commiting my monoliths.


The idea would be to alpha strike and activate the scorpions and Revenants at the beginning of the turn. You can hide the Monoliths, but can you hide them and be in a good position to attack? Could be, but could not be too.

Quote:
I do like the thoroughness though and the idea of a stress test. Quite rare to see in an army champ (With a few notable exceptions). Good man, you. ;D


Hey, I haven't done much but talk so far. Save the accolades until I get some shit done :)
Author:  stompzilla [ Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Living Metal feedback
Another game tonight vs World Eaters.

2-0 victory, turn 3 for the Necrons. It could have been 3-0 but I went a bit balls out trying to kill his fearless BTS. Again the LM when combined with careful maneuver and overlapping fire arcs from the Pylons and distracting Flayers proved to be a winner. Not a single portal was lost and this included a TK spaceship shot to the face for the War Barque which it shrugged off with a carefree chuckle.

Very little of the World Eaters was left at the end of turn 3 and tbh they were never really in it. List was something like this:

STYX CLASS CRUISER [150]

HELLBLADE FLIGHT [200]
3 Fighters

LORD OF BATTLES [400]
Lord of Battles

WORLD EATER TERMINATORS [425]
4 Terminators, Chaos Lord, Daemonic Pact

WORLD EATER RETINUE [490]
8 Berserkers, 8 Dreadclaw Drop Pod, Daemon Prince (Supreme Commander), Daemonic Pact

WORLD EATER RETINUE [390]
8 Berserkers, Chaos Lord, 8 Dreadclaw Drop Pod, Daemonic Pact

DAEMONIC ARTILLERY [200]
4 Cannons of Khorne

DAEMONIC ARTILLERY [200]
4 Cannons of Khorne

DAEMONIC ASSAULT ENGINE PACK [275]
4 Daemonic Assault Engine

DAEMON POOL [200]
10 Lesser Daemon

Give or take a few upgrades. Plenty of MWs here too. Lots of it is in CC though (As are quite a few armies' MWs) so being skimmer helped lots. One Pylon went down to Angron's MWs but it didn't half take some killing. Teleporting after almost the whole army was deployed is always a bonus and really helped out in this game too. Overall I definately don't think Necrons need the boost of the original LM. They're a VERY capable army even with the EUK "Downgrade".

Looking forward to the weekend for Manchester Mangle - 3 Necron armies, should be quite tasty.
Author:  Onyx [ Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Living Metal feedback
I played a game on the weekend using the latest Iron Warriors list (V1.0) against the NetEA Necrons.
A Terminator formation assaulted a Pylon and scored 7 (4MW, 3 normal) hits - all were saved. The engagement was drawn and we fought another round, this time scoring 6 hits (3MW, 3 normal). Again all were saved.
The Terminators won the combat and broke the Pylon.

13 saves in a row vs 7MW hits and 6 normal hits. Yes it's just one (slightly odd) example but this sort of thing does happen...
Author:  stompzilla [ Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Living Metal feedback
So, Manchester Mangle was last weekend and the crons turned up in force.

For player's reviews you're as well seeing the relevant thread in the tournaments sub forum.

The overall consensus was that player inexperience was the main factor holding the Necrons back and there were no complaints about LM at all, either by opponents or players and I think this bodes well. Mike T was the most experienced Necron player there and came, I think, 5th. Personally I think Mike would have scored higher in a normal tourney but the combination of the special objectivity scenario and his siege master opponent game 2 was a bad match up for the crons.

From my own experience:
Game 1 I played Rug's Eldar which contained Revenants, a Scorpion and lots of other zippy Eldar things. He castled his troops well and did sem to know exactly what needed to be done against the Necrons. The castle was too effective for me to break into and looking back I think I approached the game wrong. I should have had more patience and played the attrition game, as it was I got chewed up, largely thanks to the Revenants and had lost all my portals bar the tomb Complex in turn 3. This didn't matter too much though as everything was where it needed to be and struggling for possetion of the objectives over a much faster and shootier Eldar adversary. I could blame the loss of my portals to LM changes and bad dice rolls (2 died to a single round of bloody nightspinner fire) but if I'm being perfectly honest I was agressive with them, failed to take down the Revenents (My flayed ones totally fumbled the ball - failing to get a single hit and then being wiped out in CC with the titans!) who would not stay broken, and payed the price.

2-0 loss but a lot closer than you might imagine. LM wise If we'd have been using the old style LM I'd have won. The problem with that though is that I don't think I deserved to win. Rug played better, had a better idea of how to take me on and maneuvered well, wheras I felt my inexperience with the Necrons left me flailing against his speed and castle tactics.

Game 2 was vs my club-mate Simon who was using marines in the objectivity scenario. Marines always suffer against Necrons because of their lack of numbers, AT firepower and reliance on air superiority. I had practiced against this list too. TBH there's very little of value to report on this game LM wise. It barely came up, the monoliths were barely attacked because he knew that there was next to no chance of his killing them, and breaking them would have given me the extra movemen I was lacking to capture/contest objectives and score the objectivity VC. In fact I even maneuvered a situation where my monoliths would break themselves! Of note though, the Flayed ones were particularly effective against Warhounds, killing both.

Game 3 was against Mike T's Necrons. Again, neither of us had the neccessary AT firepower required to take on Monoliths and concentrated on killing each other's Phalanx fms. An exchange that he definately had the better of. Interestingly enough Mike prefers Obelisks to Destroyers and I have to say that I'm almost convinced. Destroyers do have their upsides but all that 30 cm move 45cm range AT firepower, fearless, RA and TRA is mightily useful, especially for taking pressure off of portals. If Destroyers were any more expensive than they currently are I'd have to swap them out for Obelisks.

3-0 loss to me.

I'm planning on taking a slightly revised and hopefully improved Necron list to the GT and will hopefully have more than 3 practise games under my belt, against a wider range of adversaries than I have so far. I'm hoping to do a bit better but still had 3 great games and never once found myself hampered, unfairly IMO, by the downgrade to LM. If anything I found it to be more fair to my opponents and made for a better, more cagey, maneuver centric game and less of a 1 dimensional teleport in front of the enemy and engage experience.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Living Metal feedback
Quote:
less of a 1 dimensional teleport in front of the enemy and engage experience.

I wouldn't say that the downgrade was that significant that that would ever have been a winning strategy.

Few armies are that packed with MW's that you'd find much of a difference in result with such a strategy, I think.
Author:  Ulrik [ Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Living Metal feedback
Looks pretty ok so far.

Two more tests I'd like to see, one is how it develops once folks get experience playing both with and against the 'Crons.

The other is stress tests with maxed out ranged MWs and see if that breaks the new LM. Haven't gotten my game in yet :(
Author:  Moscovian [ Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Living Metal feedback
Testing MW heavy lists seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy. The LM change only has an effect against MW-armed units, so I would be shocked if there wasn't a change in performance. The question should be overalldoes the LM have a lasting change on the balance of the list against a variety of opponents?

This is like making a change to the sniper ability and then looking for battle reports that are heavy on characters. Hmmm, I wonder if we'll see a difference? :)
Author:  Ulrik [ Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Living Metal feedback
Moscovian wrote:
Testing MW heavy lists seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy. The LM change only has an effect against MW-armed units, so I would be shocked if there wasn't a change in performance. The question should be overalldoes the LM have a lasting change on the balance of the list against a variety of opponents?


The idea is to see if the Necrons get utterly destroyed by such a list. If every monolith gets killed before it can disgorge any troops, I'd think there's a problem, even if it's an extreme list.

The other reason is that the effect of MW will get lost in the "noise" of small sample sizes in individual games. A monolith could go down the first hit it takes in a game, or it could survive 6 or more. None of those events are extremely unlikely, but they have a large effect on the game. Did you take all down the monoliths because you were packing MWs or because the Necron player rolled crap on his saves?
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