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Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:53 pm 
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To clarify, I agree with Hena on this... don't try and push the idea through without support (Even though I agree with the mod in principle, some don't).

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Markconz
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:57 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jul. 24 2007,11:34)
QUOTE
as deadly to armour as meltas


Remember that Meltas are AP1, which means they never do glancing hits, while demolishers can... anyway this is indeed for a different debate (Personally I think giving demolishers MW status is justified and would give a reason to take these units).


Yes but that AP1 is only one of many factors and if you add them all in the Demolisher comes out just as lethal if not more so. As a tribute to my own exceedingly dull post on 40k MM and Demolisher power in the Baneblade thread, here's a quick reminder, just in case someone wants to start up a Demolisher debate in another thread...

Surprisingly, if you number crunch the respective capabilities of meltas and demolishers there is no real difference in damage dealing capability even at close range (remember an on target ordnance shot gets to roll two dice for penetration and choose the highest (as well as starting at S10)). Eg:  

Melta at long range vs strongest armour
0.83 No effect.
0.00 Glancing Hit
0.17 Penetrating hit.

Melta at close range vs strongest armour:
0.28 No effect.
0.00 Glancing hit.
0.72 Penetrating hit

Demolisher at any range vs strongest armour:
0.25 No effect.
0.19 Glancing hit
0.56 Penetrating hit.

A glancing hit has about half the chance of seriously damaging/destroying a vehicle as a penetrating hit, and the other glancing results will still effectively knock the enemy vehicle out of action for a turn (which often turns out to be a pretty lethal result in game terms). Ie the difference in power is around 3-6%  depending on how you want to measure it.

In other words there really is no significant difference between Meltas and Demolishers in actual armour defeating capability at short range (and Demolishers are far superior at longer range). Demolishers also use the Ordnance damage table against vehicles meaning they have a greater chance of blowing vehicles to pieces rather than just knocking them out. Demolishers also do twice as much damage to open topped vehicles (most LV's in epic terms).

All of which is a long winded way of saying that there simply is not justification from 40k for one being MW and the other not in Epic.  ???

More importantly in terms of actual balance and gameplay in Epic... demolisher cannons are just sad lame ducks at present. I actually thought the tide had swung on this issue some time ago in favour of making them MW as myself,  E&C and others would like.  Hopefully people will see the light and change their minds...   :)

If Demolisher cannons on Vindis, Baneblades and Demolishers are MW IC, then AT3/AP3 for the main gun on the baneblade might be ok....

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Markconz
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:10 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jul. 24 2007,11:53)
QUOTE
To clarify, I agree with Hena on this... don't try and push the idea through without support (Even though I agree with the mod in principle, some don't).

Like I said at the start - on just a few issues there is consensus and support that a change has to happen but not clear consensus on exactly how.

When that has happened I have chosen what is usually the simplest solution from several 'good enough' solutions that have been proposed in debate over the past few years.  It is better to have something rather than nothing because really any of the suggestions that have been proposed will improve game balance. It is coming down to splitting hairs at this stage.  Deadlines not yet more endless discussion.

If people care enough on something - start a thread for discussion with a balanced poll setup etc. Like I said I am quite prepared to be shouted down.  Or just persuade Neal...  :;):

Edit - actually I will start a poll myself on this seeing as this seems to be one of the big ones...

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woodelf_dave
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:14 pm 
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Printed this tome off for our gaming night and our two new players in particular were both glad of having this resource so that rules  & army lists were in one place.
Any idea when the Nids & Tau will be incorporated and the updated rules on hit allocation and fearless ?
Great piece of work Markconz !
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Markconz
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:49 pm 
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(woodelf_dave @ Jul. 25 2007,12:14)
QUOTE
Printed this tome off for our gaming night and our two new players in particular were both glad of having this resource so that rules  & army lists were in one place.
Any idea when the Nids & Tau will be incorporated and the updated rules on hit allocation and fearless ?
Great piece of work Markconz !

Cheers!

Tau and Tyranids I'm holding off on as both those Army Champions are doing good work on getting those lists into shape at the moment. Maybe print those lists off separately for now seeing as they are undergoing rapid change?

Allocating hits and Fearless, I'm hoping to get something into print sooner. Plus any other issues that need changing. Sorry I can't be more exact, but the whole thing has just kind of sprung into life overnight and I need to give people  time on some issues unfortunately.

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Reddeth
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:59 pm 
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I also wanted to thank you Markconz, the idea of having all the updated rules and army lists in one place is brilliant.

I share the feeling of many that the rules review process is simply taking too long. Many of the rules/list changes have been reached after extended community consensus and its great to finally see them all in one document that everyone can use. It certainly makes it easier for newbies to get into the game without having to hunt around for dozens of Faqs/experimental rules/lists. I hope it gives the ERC and other list writers the inspiration/kick in the pants they need to finish their work.

Keep up the great work, I look forward to the next version of the handbook.

Long live EA.
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Markconz
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 1:42 am 
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Thanks Reddeth. I'm about to start collecting information on the next set of issues in some more threads.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 8:35 am 
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Updated again with recent versions of the hit allocation and fearless rules, and some other minor corrections. See first post.

Mainly just waiting for Tau and Tyranids now.

Also given a mastercopy to Cybershadow for safekeeping.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 5:14 am 
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Ah missed that post - thanks Hena.

Will stick version numbers in from now on...

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Reddeth
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:47 am 
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Hi Markconz,
Once again, love your work.

I have checked over the handbook re section 5.10.6 (Black Legion Unit Stats) versus the version in the vault and have found the following possible typos:

* Missing stats for Daemon ?Prince

* Champion of Chaos: Both attack forms missing First Strike Ability,

* Chaos Rhino: FF4+ should be FF6+

* Decimator: Twin Reapers AT6+ should be AT5+

* Feral Titan: FF4+ should be FF5+
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Hellmouth should be Forward Arc(FA)?

*Ravager Titan: FF3+ should be FF4+
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Doomburner, add Fixed Forward

*Banelord Titan: FF3+ should be FF4+

*Helltalon: Incendiary Bombs 3BP should be 2BP

*Bloodthirster: Axe of Khorne RNG 15cm should be B/C

*Keeper of Secrets: Speed 30cm should be 15cm
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?FF- should be FF4+

*Great Unclean One: Nugling Storm +2A should be +1, remove TK ability from this attack.

*Daemonic Beasts: Claw Fangs RNG 15cm should be B/C
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Add Infiltrator to notes.


Will look over other chaos sections when I get the chance. Keep up the good work,

Red
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Markconz
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:56 am 
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(Reddeth @ Aug. 01 2007,04:47)
QUOTE
I have checked over the handbook re section 5.10.6 (Black Legion Unit Stats) versus the version in the vault and have found the following possible typos:

Woah - that is a heap of mistakes...  :blush:  Can tell I did those ones in a hurry....

That's great feedback though thanks. I will get onto fixing it and getting a new version up straight away.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:58 am 
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Updated again to fix Black legion list and units, including some wording changes clarifying Chaos Space Marine Lords, formation details, MW removed from some TK weapons where not needed, and some other small details.

Version number added - Alpha Draft 1.1.

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Reddeth
 Post subject: Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:50 am 
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Caught a couple more typos Markconz, as follows:

Section 5.11.6 LatD:
* Deamon Prince AR6+ should be 3+
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?CC5+ should be 3+
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? FF5+ should be 3+

*Chaos Hounds SPD 15cm should be 30cm

*Slaanesh Questor AR4+ should be 5+

*Top of page 58 reads 5.10.6 instead of 5.11.6

Section 6.11 LatD Army List:
* Slaanesh Questors +275pts instead of +225pts

*Traitor Marauders +250pts should be highlighted in blue.

That should make the chaos armies all correct methinks.
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