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Artillery (Again)

 Post subject: Re: Artillery (Again)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:31 pm 
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For what it's worth, I counted up the answers from people in the Facebook thread, which (assuming I counted up correctly) went something like:


"Can I do this?"

yes - 12
yes (but I don't like it, implication the rule should be changed) - 3

No (the centre of the template must be in range) - 3
No (whole template must be in range) - 1
No (a small part of the template must be in range) - 1

I prefer Epic 40k because it doesn't have this problem - 1

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 Post subject: Re: Artillery (Again)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:33 pm 
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pretty sure that was actually some NetEpic person saying we all suck and play fake epic ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Artillery (Again)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:39 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Artillery (Again)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:43 pm 
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I hadn't realised this was allowed but the rules as written suggest it is. So long as both players are aware and play the same then it seems fine to me.

Tim said over on the facebook thread he thought people at Epic-UK tournaments shouldn't do it this way but Dave says it's fine and other Epic-UK regulars say they've been playing it this way for years already so I don't quite know which way to play it. It could help to come to a consensus and FAQ it if needed. I'm using two Nightspinner formations in my Alaitoc list at the tournament on Saturday and it could be relevent to know how I should play it.

I'd also regularly use Griffons in the Epic-UK Ulani list. They're a cheap dedicated formation there of 3 for 100 points.


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 Post subject: Re: Artillery (Again)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:50 pm 
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To be honest if there is to be a decision to change the rules (which a restriction on the plate being in range would be, I agree with Dave on that) then that is a big deal and opens up the door for the wider issues of direct fire barrages*. Where to stop, basically.

* For example, the shoot round corners problem. "Oh nice, if I move so I can see through that 1mm gap, I can just about see a fraction of one of your units you thought you had hidden behind terrain. KABLAM whole formation covered in template, and oh by the way no cover modifier even though they're fully obscured by intervening terrain."

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 Post subject: Re: Artillery (Again)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:09 pm 
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Ok, so the rules have always been like this, and have always had the potential to place a template beyond its stated range. BUT to do this with artillery also needs to satisfy the requirement to maximise the number of units under the template. Effectively, this is not necessarily easy to achieve in-game, though I understand Tim’s concerns about the potentials for some abuse - though I suggest they also exist where the template has to be placed ‘within range’.

Furthermore, the difference is effectively +/- 30mm, which is only 6% and thus relatively insignificant at 45 cm range let alone greater distances.

Is this a real problem?


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 Post subject: Re: Artillery (Again)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:51 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
Dave wrote:
Ya, you're not going to run into it with indirect barrages all that often, given how large their ranges are relative to a 4x6' table.

Given that it happened with a Griffon puts another check in the marginal column. Who takes Griffons?

[raises hands]
but yeah not in anything NetEA based (the Tallarn Raiders list they're cheap and r0xxors light arty formation-everywhere else they're a sucky upgrade)

This is so not a real issue as short range direct barrage weapons are pretty rare. IF really gives most shots some range relative to the table size so it's so fringe as to be unheard of

Again, it's a substantial issue for Death Guard (NetEA as well as EpicUK) where the barrage units are:
Contagions (45cm + Indirect so not much effect in their own formation, but they can be added to Retinues where they often end up firing at 45cm direct)
Plague Towers (60cm direct so some effect)
Plaguereapers (30cm direct, so a big effect)
Plaguehounds (30cm direct)
Great Unclean One (15cm direct, so a huge impact but they're not seen very often)

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 Post subject: Re: Artillery (Again)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:20 am 
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With respect it is still only 3cm.
Don’t those shorter ranged guys need all the ‘love’ they can get?

Those lists were built with these stats - and quite possibly the assumption of this kind of ‘range stretching’ tactic in mind. I cannot see this having much impact in-game, PROVIDING it is understood beforehand.

So, I would also go with the revised FAQ for clarity.


Last edited by Ginger on Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Artillery (Again)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:28 am 
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Given that some posters in the FB thread thought that either the whole template or the centre of the template had to be in range, no it's not 'only 3cm'... :-\

For the players who thought the whole template should be in range (and 4cm strip bases in the target formation), it's an increase of 10cm or a whole 1/3 of the range for 30cm barrages. For the 'centre of the template in range' posters it's still 7cm.

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 Post subject: Re: Artillery (Again)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:34 am 
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Well yeah but that's them just not having read the rules right. One of them mentioned he only ever plays one other person and when not playing with a wider pool of people some things can be missed.


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 Post subject: Re: Artillery (Again)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:41 am 
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Agreed Glynn


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 Post subject: Re: Artillery (Again)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:53 am 
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Benefit of the doubt would be to assume the same of a few of the "yes" answers too.

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 Post subject: Re: Artillery (Again)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:19 pm 
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Imho, the “shooting round corners” is much more of an issue than the few extra cm gained from range stretching. If it were me at least the centre of the template should have to be in LOS for direct barrage and units out of LOS should gain a -1 for cover, otherwise why make the distinction between direct/indirect?

But hey, maybe i’m just bitter having played IJW’s deathguard with squishy eldar too much! :-)


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 Post subject: Re: Artillery (Again)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:25 pm 
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Take it from me, ‘shooting round corners’ is one of those rules like “clipping” that you learn through bitter experience - like in the first turn of a game where a great gargant doubles up a road to put its first template over the edge of a Falcon it could just see, while the rest of the template covered the others that were all tightly grouped together out of sight cowering behind a hill. Then the extra template covered a group of guardians and their wave serpents that were totally hidden.

Given the large number of MW dice throw, inevitably a considerable number of units died breaking both formations.

Not a good start to the game . . . ::)


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 Post subject: Re: Artillery (Again)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:11 am 
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Ginger wrote:
Take it from me, ‘shooting round corners’ is one of those rules like “clipping” that you learn through bitter experience - like in the first turn of a game where a great gargant doubles up a road to put its first template over the edge of a Falcon it could just see, while the rest of the template covered the others that were all tightly grouped together out of sight cowering behind a hill. Then the extra template covered a group of guardians and their wave serpents that were totally hidden.

Given the large number of MW dice throw, inevitably a considerable number of units died breaking both formations.

Not a good start to the game . . . ::)
Yeah, and dumb AF

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