Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 

Transport Capacities - Terminology?

 Post subject: Transport Capacities - Terminology?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:38 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:43 pm
Posts: 1002
Location: Devon, UK
Following on from viewtopic.php?f=82&t=31890 ...

Describing what transports can carry which units always gets a bit longwinded, and often leads to inconsistencies between lists.

Would something like this work?

  • Transports have Transport (X) as they mostly do now.
  • Units that take up more than one space get a new label, Bulk (Y), saying how many transport slots they take up.
  • Transports that can only take human-size troops get Transport (X), Small which shows that they can't fit troopers that up more than one slot.

Thoughts? There would still be transports that would need exceptions, for example Thunderhawks being able to carry Dreadnoughts as Bulk (2).

_________________
The Wargaming Trader - we buy and sell used GW.
NetEA Death Guard Army Champion


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Transport Capacities - Terminology?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:57 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:03 pm
Posts: 5783
Location: Leicester UK
I think right now it's okay, the transport unit should have a list of all the units it can transport in the 'may transport' section on the datasheet/quickref, the units have a 'counts as X slots' rule, cross reference the two, if your unit is not on the 'may transport' list then regardless of how big/small it is, it can't be transported, people need to be rigorous at list writing time, but even with a 'bulky/slender' rule, there are still exceptions, I think ACs should be as explicit as possible what can be transported in what :)

_________________
Adeptus Astartes Army Champion, also AC for Imperial Fists and Red Corsairs

various hobby/painting threads: full of 6mm goodness

Army Forge List Co-ordinator (netEA+EpicUK)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Transport Capacities - Terminology?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:11 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 7996
Location: Manalapan, FL
I'm all for the above in the OP. Even where we're adding to the stat line, it's almost always at the benefit of removing long winded notes from other units. There are some "holes" like dreadnoughts where they cannot be transported, even by units that can be with terminators (same bulk(2) story) but that's still easy enough to simply put into the dread notes. There's also the possibility of using small, large, huge where marine==small, termi==large, huge==dread (or the faction specific comperables).

I'm sorry but the giant paragraph in the stike cruiser and tbrick, for example, is just terrible, period. It's even worse as soon as you have custom units (e.g. Whitescar bike) you are either answering questions that "yes white scar bikes are able to be counted as regular bikes" caused by rules lawyers, have to put a note on every custom unit "counts as X" which is just verbose and easy to mess up (though admittedly better than the mess we have now), or requires duplicated CMS entries to outline the specific combos.

_________________
The Artist Formerly Known As Marine Army Champion

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Transport Capacities - Terminology?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 12:15 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:43 pm
Posts: 2227
Location: UK
But it's simply not enough as different transports are able to transport different units. Thunderhawks, drop pods and rhinos for example

_________________
Kyrt's Battle Result Tracker (forum post is here)
Kyrt's trade list


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Transport Capacities - Terminology?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 12:23 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5316
Location: London, UK
Off the top of my head I tend to agree with Kyrt on this.

Scouts were excluded from Drop Pods when they were found to be OTT, Warp Spiders cannot be carried in Wave Serpents or Falcons for similar reasons, to name two units that are likely to cause problems with this approach. Equally Grots are often included in addition to the maximum load of other Ork units and many include a single Big Gun, so these would also need some additional wording.

By all means, let's try working through some form of streamlined wording, but I have a horrible feeling that this could end up being rather complicated and confusing.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Transport Capacities - Terminology?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 12:52 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:03 pm
Posts: 5783
Location: Leicester UK
agreed, there are so many exceptions and clauses that there is no easy way to streamline it IMO, I've been guilty of it myself but I maintain that having a paragraph in the unit entry listing explicitly all the units that can be transported is the most effective way

_________________
Adeptus Astartes Army Champion, also AC for Imperial Fists and Red Corsairs

various hobby/painting threads: full of 6mm goodness

Army Forge List Co-ordinator (netEA+EpicUK)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Transport Capacities - Terminology?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 12:57 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20679
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
If writing the system from scratch, it'd probably be more elegant to give each transport unit a "transport capacity (x)" stat and each transportable unit a "size (x)" stat plus another stat noting exceptions, eg: "This unit may not use Drop Pods".

At this point it'd be a pretty hefty re-write of all the army lists and unit cards and core rules, for little functional benefit though, I feel.

_________________
6mm scale Scifi Plastic Sprues available here!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Transport Capacities - Terminology?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:28 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 7996
Location: Manalapan, FL
^thank you E&C^
My points exactly. There's NO, again let me state NO restriction on Scouts taking drop pods as function of the unit itself. There's no scouts in drop pods as a function of list design (I've actually got a list where they can drop but scouts are a very different role in there and justifiably cost a crap ton more too).

_________________
The Artist Formerly Known As Marine Army Champion

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Transport Capacities - Terminology?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:32 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:43 pm
Posts: 1002
Location: Devon, UK
Question - are there any transports (other than Thunderhawks) that can carry Jump Troops?

_________________
The Wargaming Trader - we buy and sell used GW.
NetEA Death Guard Army Champion


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Transport Capacities - Terminology?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:42 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 7996
Location: Manalapan, FL
I assume you mean assault marines / raptors in your post. Yes there's plenty though all accept one is a flyer (the raven is a skimmer, odd beast that is).

_________________
The Artist Formerly Known As Marine Army Champion

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!


Last edited by jimmyzimms on Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Transport Capacities - Terminology?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:53 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:43 pm
Posts: 1002
Location: Devon, UK
I actually meant units with Jump Packs. Thanks.

_________________
The Wargaming Trader - we buy and sell used GW.
NetEA Death Guard Army Champion


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Transport Capacities - Terminology?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:52 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:03 pm
Posts: 5783
Location: Leicester UK
yes

vampires, landas, slavebringers, executioners, orcas, mantas can all carry troops with jump packs

_________________
Adeptus Astartes Army Champion, also AC for Imperial Fists and Red Corsairs

various hobby/painting threads: full of 6mm goodness

Army Forge List Co-ordinator (netEA+EpicUK)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Transport Capacities - Terminology?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:57 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:43 pm
Posts: 1002
Location: Devon, UK
Thanks again.

_________________
The Wargaming Trader - we buy and sell used GW.
NetEA Death Guard Army Champion


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Transport Capacities - Terminology?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:02 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5316
Location: London, UK
I think we need to indicate all those troops that can be transported (to distinguish from those that may not be transported) as well as whether they are bulky or not.
So let's consider how this would work with the Marines. If I have understood you correctly we need additional definitions to cover vehicles and infantry, and the transports that carry them. So we would get something like the following
  • Tactical marine, Inf, TI(1) = transportable infantry (1) slot
  • Assault marine, Inf, TI(1), except Drop Pods
  • Terminators, Inf, TI(2), except Drop Pods
  • Dreadnought, AV, TI(2)
  • Land Speeders -
  • Predator Anahilator TV(1),
  • Land Raider TV(1.5),
  • Drop Pods, Transport a formation of TI units
  • ThunderHawk, Transport capacity TI(6)
  • Landing Craft, Transport Capacity TI12, TV(6)

If I have understood the principle correctly, E&C is correct that this will require rewriting virtually every entry of each list, a vast undertaking. It will have an impact on the layout on the quick reference sheets, and even this approach needs further refinement to cater for Spaceships, which do not have the same space constraints as ground vehicles, and can also carry vehicles capable of planetfalling.

Colour me 'unconvinced' on this whole exercise, on the grounds that the existing approach may be a tad long-winded but it does work, while this alternative is arguably at least as long-winded and clunky IMHO.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Transport Capacities - Terminology?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:38 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:21 pm
Posts: 71
Location: Seattle, WA
Maybe I'm missing something, but the current tournament pack for all approved lists seem to be pretty close to minimal. "Transport two infantry units except those with Jump Packs or Mounted" or similar entries appear in almost every list. The exceptions that need to exist do. The biggest remaining source of clarification are Dreads, Attack Bikes, and similar units which are LV and thus may or may not be transportable on any given transport (often in the context of X infantry (also including these LV) and Y Vehicles (except those LV).

None of the existing approved lists had the classic "may carry 20 of Tactical, Devastator, Assault, Scout..." style paragraphs anymore.

I admit I haven't looked at every developmental or experimental list, but a random sampling of the ones I've got downloaded right now are about 50/50 on having old-style explicit types where not necessary versus the more modern style.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net