Thanks Kyrt for adding a further 'curved ball' to the definitions.

I am not convinced that 3.13 entirely replaces 1.7.5. Indeed 3.1.3 states specifically that this is "an exception to the rule that transport vehicles may only carry units from their own formation", implying that it does not replace the next sentence in 1.7.5; "Transport vehicles can pick up and carry units as part of the transport vehicle’s move." This is why I am suggesting that this particular definition also applies to an air transport embarking troops as part of its approach move.

Guys, the key question is, when does the air transport's move end?
- Does it end upon landing, or
- Does it end after the troops have been embarked?

Kyrt raises another point on the timing of when you become brokenThat is not strictly correct.

Technically, the aircraft should complete it's approach move *before* any AA is resolved, and there are elaborate definitions to describe which AA can shoot at that point (see 4.2.4). This suggests that the Transport has therefore landed before the effects of the AA are considered - but has it also picked up the troops?

It does mean that there would be a check as the result of shooting either by AA or OW, which automatically lays a BM potentially breaking the attacking formation, thus preventing the assault from taking place. It also includes checking a formation that receives damage (and thus a BM) during the assault.

That said, I really like the idea that the transport can convert landing into a 'fly by' should there be sufficient BMs to break the transport on landing. But, this would obviously mean that the transport didn't actually land after all

So . . . I guess I really want both to have (possess) my cake and also to eat it

But that's just it, 3.1.3 is saying that war engines don't "pick up and carry units as part of their own move". They pick up units by having the units move onto them as part of their own action. So clearly this part of 1.7.5 is overridden. You're then extrapolating further to assume "after landing, pick up units within 5cm" is the same as "pick up units by moving over them during the war engine's own [approach] move". Two bits of shaky logic there.


I don't think it's relevant. The rules say that both the becoming a ground unit and embarking troops happen "after landing". Clearly they land after the approach move has already happened (and after the AA is resolved too - see below).

No, not for AA. I suggest you have another look at the rules, because they are explicit about that:
"Landing: Aircraft with a transport capability can land after making their approach move and having being fired upon by any enemy flak. "

Make approach move, then resolve AA, then land. That ordering is explicit, clearly the aircraft is still in the air when shooting is resolved. As I say though, it does cause problems so I would generally choose to ignore it. Note that both OW and taking damage in assault can lay new BMs and thus cause the aircraft to break, but in the case of assault, you will note that it's not actually possible to make a difference for an aircraft, which is why my example of a vampire with 2BM winning an assault not being broken holds true - if it was getting a BM, it's because it took a point of damage, which would mean it was destroyed. Until there are disrupt AA weapons...

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I think we could benefit from a recap of what's already definitely clear about the ordering from the rules:

Declare ground attack
Roll to activate
Make approach move
Resolve AA, including placing BMs
Land
Embark/disembark
Overwatch (if troops disembark), including placing BMs
Transport and disembarked units shoot/assault as one formation
Disembarked units split into separate formation

What's not clear is:

1. Does the aircraft converts to a ground unit before or after embark/disembark? We only know that it happens after landing.
2. Do embarking units actually count towards break point, or is this only intended to apply to disembarking units?
3. Do you check for broken when the transport converts to a ground unit, or only when receiving new BMs like the RAW?

Edit: Personally I think there is a logical answer to 1) that can be inferred from the way it is written in the rules, i.e. that the aircraft becoming a ground unit "once landed" == "as soon as landed". If you consider "landing" as an item in the procedure itself, it really makes sense that this is when the transition happens. Troops aren't going to jump on board until it's on the ground.

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Ha, you say potato I say tomato

With great respect, we know that the act of disembarking occurs as part of the air transport's move, which is why any OW fire occurs after the air transport has disembarked (thus preventing the use of deathstrikes on OW to kill the air transport and contents . . . ). It is also different from ground units, which may be OW either before or after disembarking / embarking.

So the question of when the approach move ends and whether it includes embarking is totally relevant IMO.

I also agree that the other questions listed need to be answered - but I guess that is what others need to decide

i don't mean I prolong the esoteric debate more than is necessary, but no, we really don't "know" these things. I really think if you re-read the aircraft rules in full then what I have written you will see why.

Disembarking does not happen as part of the (approach) move, it happens when the rules say it does - after landing. You are ignoring what the aircraft rules explicitly say and projecting an assumption from other parts of the game instead. The aircraft rules say it happens after landing. And the reason OW happens after disembarking is precisely because landing does NOT count as a move whereas disembarking does. Again, the aircraft rules explicitly state that.
In other words, you can't OW aircraft with deathstrikes simply because the rules say you can't, not because the aircraft moves, lands and disembarks all as part of one "move".

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