Correction, there are actually nine units:

Thunderer Siege Tank – in Death Korps and Minnervan lists.
Demolisher Tank – in Steel Legion, Death Korps, Minnervan, Cadian, Catachan, LaTD and Vraksian lists.
Baneblade - in Steel Legion, Death Korps, Minnervan, Cadian and Vraksian lists.
Plague Reaper – Death Guard list.
Greater Brass Scorpion – World Eaters list, Red Corsairs list.
Fellblade – Imperial Fists and Horus Heresy list.
Malcador Anhilator – Vraksian and Horus Heresy list.
Malcador Defender – Vraksian and Horus Heresy list.
Vindicator – many SM and CSM lists.

I really don't see the justification for changing that many units in that many lists just because the Baneblade and the SM Vindicator are a bit poor. Don't get me wrong - I'm in favour of boosting both these units too, just not with such a big global change.


I'm not sure where the wiki is basing that on but Demolishers on Vindicators are no different to Demolishers on anything else in 40k game terms. If the difference is small enough to not be represented in 40k rules then I don't see it being worth representing on an epic scale.

Even if you propose just changing SM and CSM Vindicators the CSM Vindicator is a good choice as is and I find it highly unlikely Steve54 would agree to a weapon change so this whole debate is moot anyway. Just making Vindicators 200 points would make them a good choice while being less controversial.

Now that I think about it, accidentally upgrading Minervan Thunderers is probably a terrible idea.

Well said Glyn.

Guys, if the issue was with the Demolisher cannon, all the units would underperform. As it is, it seems that only the BaneBlade and SM Vindi have issues, so lets fix these units and formations rather than changing everything by adjusting the weapon stats.

Thankyou for that.

So of those, what are in "approved" lists where their is a genuine concern about balance being altered?

Do any other then feature regularly in their respective lists?

I had a troll through the EA battreps didn't see many people using formations of thunderers, there was the rare vindicator formation.

The Fellblade, and Malcadores I've seen in games rarely get to use the demolisher cannon due to range. My experience with the fellblade is that its awesome due to the 4x AT4+ shot and a TK cannon combined with ATSKNF.



What are the likely in-game results? I read your views, got it, why are you so anti-trail? I've run a lot of numbers for my own benefit (looking at vindicators specifically), posted a few, and the results were that against all but RA targets, the MW demolisher was much of a muchness as the other platforms typically generate a higher number of hits:

Consider the 10 strong thunderer formation vs a 10 strong standard russ formation.
A thunder formation can't even reach a 75cm target after a double, whilst the russ can sustain to hit on 3s.
A demolisher formation can get its lascannon into range, hitting on 6s.
Within 45cm the thunder (or vindicators for that matter) are still required to advance, hitting on 4s though these are now more likely to kill. The russ formation is going to generate 20 odd AT hits on 3/4s...

The epic game relies hugely on speed and range, a MW alone is not OTT. The ability to employ it against a target needs to be considered. How often are IG players getting good shooting out of their demolishers? What about minervan tank commanders?

I'm not trying to de-stabalise the entire epic game gents, but your constant negative response to any suggested change outside your own pet projects is somewhat frustrating.

In terms of approved lists it would effect: Space Marines, Salamanders, Scions of Iron, White Scars, Death Korps, Minnervan, Lost and the Damned, Black Legion and Steel Legion. Quite a few...


Thunderers have their uses and I've certainly used formations of them. A comparison needs to bear in mind that they are the cheapest Russ variant – 425 for 10 compared to a SL Tank Company at 650. Their overall firepower is lower for sure, but the amount of hits they get goes down less when doubling than for Russes plus cover doesn't effect their attacks. Also, unlike other Russes, they have Thick Rear Armour so can go forward and attack a bit more safely.

The Vraksian Malcador moves 15cm (may be different in the Heresy list as the technical knowledge to build and maintain their engines has been lost by 40k leaving them notably underpowered for the vehicle) so can garrison forward closer to the enemy and given the armament some carry (3 x Twin-linked Heavy Bolters plus the Demolisher Cannon and a FF3+ on the Malcador Defender) players are going to move forward to attack as much as possible rather than sitting back and shooting. I used a formation of 10 at a Winter Warmer tournament one year and found them powerful.

Ortron, with great respect, it seems that we are at risk of repeating ourselves. You say Potato, I say tomato etc.
You ask why I / we are so averse to running "trials". At the risk of repeating stuff and boring everyone, running trials would be pointless and waste a lot of time. As I said in the Marine thread on this subject, there are striking parallels with the Eldar Cobra which has a much bigger weapon, yet still underperforms. Changing the Demolisher to be MW is not addressing the root cause of the issue, while it also has huge impacts across other lists

IMO the issue with the Vindicator is the combination of a slow unit with a short ranged weapon. This is a close support urban street-clearance tank or a siege-buster. Use the right tactics in the right terrain and it will work fine as several have said. But these are specific circumstances and tactics. Use the wrong tactics in the wrong terrain and the results are always going to underwhelming, irrespective of whether the tank is equipped with MW or even the Cobra D-Cannon

Noted, seems we will agree to disagree. That's cool, out of interest what's your thoughts on the compromise of it gaining Disrupt, and those veh who have it as their main armament gaining ignore cover on their FF attacks?

So still a change across multiple lists but potentially less drastic and a further reason to use vindicators and the like in support of urban or dense terrain assaults?

It would seem to me that the Vindicator (to be specific) should always have had Ignore Cover on it's FF attack as it's only weapon is IC.

_________________
Just call me Steve.

NetEA Rules Chair
NetEA FAQ

Want to play Iron Warriors in Epic Armageddon? Click HERE
Some of my Armies.
My Hobby site.

I don't think any units in the original three lists had IC FF attacks, it's something that has suck in in later units. Seems to make sense though. The LR demolisher, thunderer and even hellhound and Ork scorchers could potentially justify an IC FF attack, but I accept some have secondary weapons...

At this point gents, I am generally in favour of adding Disrupt + IC FF to the Vindicator in a trial Codex list, TBA. I'll also be trialling it as the Astartes Demolisher to give some differentiation. Some will no doubt like it, others hate it but I would like to see what this will bring to a possible future Marine list.

As an alternative, however, I'm considering increasing the Vindicator's speed to 30cm. Given both the Pred Annihilator and Vindicator's top speeds are both very close.
On road:
68km/h Pred A
64km/h Vindicator

Off road:
50 km/h Pred A
48 km/h Vindicator

30cm speed also gives 10cm countercharge, not insignificant. I'd be in favor of that.

_________________
- Ulrik

IC and Disrupt seems to make sense for the effect on the target, even if they survive the impact of the huge shell. Adding "FF, IC" also makes sense. That said, these changes to the weapon's stats needs to be applied consistently to all units in all the relevant lists. Purely from a coordination perspective, there ought to be agreement between all the ACs and Sub-ACs on this.

I am less sure about upping the speed of the Vindicator again to 30cm (remember it was originally 20 cm), but that is mainly a 'gut' feeling rather than anything else.

• From a shooting PoV this adds a possible 10 cm, effectively adding 33% to the range, which is quite significant quite apart from the countercharge abilities.
• Presumably this would also apply to the Chaos lists as well

So purely on these points I recommend keeping this option back just for the moment.

Yeah a possibility only right now as nothing is confirmed in any way. Strange though, I would have imagined the speed change to be the first to attempt given that it effects less lists and is not the weapon stat.

Ginger, in regards to the 10cm countercharge, this might be a nice abstract way to help paint them as the scary assault tank for Marines that they're supposed to be.

Not really Dobbsy given the armour of the Marine infantry - though it might be a different story if used by Marine scouts. It is the FF IC that actually gives the Vindicator that edge, especially if deployed in sufficient numbers.

However, this is a totally different story for IG, where the ability to countercharge to the front of a formation may reduce the damage it suffers.

Perhaps the first step is to see if 25 points per tank solves it? Then tinker with the gun?

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x