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NetEA Approved Army List errors/typos

 Post subject: NetEA Approved Army List errors/typos
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:00 pm 
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Think you found something wrong with these?

http://www.tp.net-armageddon.org

Post here so we can get them up to snuff.

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Approved Army List errors/typos
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:47 pm 
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Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but the AMTL list is pretty messed up and difficult to use as it's listed on the site right now.

AMTL:
There's considerable difference in the wording and sometimes the intent of the AMTL list on the site. To avoid potential confusion, we should have these read the same regardless of location. I'll do my best to hit everything:

General note: The order of unit entries seems to put everything alphabetical. It would be nice to arrange it more points order in each category.

1. Special Rules:

God Machines:
Listed as: All War Griffons Titan Legion formations with a unit with a line of fire to a Scout or Battle Titan that has been destroyed receive a Blast marker.

Should be: If any Scout or Battle Titan formation is destroyed, then any friendly formations within line of sight receive one blast marker.

List Construction:

Listed as: War Griffons Epic Tournament Special Rules: All Weapon Mounts in a Scout or Battle Titan formation must be mounted with a weapon. In addition, each Scout or Battle Titan formation must select at least two different weapons or pay a surcharge of an additional +25 points.

Should be: List Construction & Titan Weapons: A Titan may not be upgraded with more or less weapons than its class allows and each Titan formation must select at least two different types of weapons. However, if the player wishes, a Titan formation may contain only one type of weapon, at the cost of +25 pts.

2. AMTL List Entries:

Emperor Titan: It doesn't have a Corvus Assault Pod, but the leg bastions count as one. Shouldn't be in the entry. Should be part of the datasheet listed as Leg Bastions: Counts as CAP. It can also take all of the upgrades same as the Reaver and Warlord.

Warhound Titans: These are only allowed the Vet Princepts upgrade.

Warlord, Reaver, Warhound: should list the number of hardpoints and weapons type allowed as per the AMTL PDF.

Titan Upgrades:
This section is completely messed up. Weapons are not upgrades and should be separated out. The note for upgrades should read:

"May only be taken by Battle Titans unless otherwise noted." not "once per formation"

Weapons need to be broken out into Scout and Battle Titan categories.

3. Unit Stats:

I'm not quite sure where to start here. Some things are fine, others aren't. There seem to be some incorrect weapon name and wrong stats scattered through out here, but it's very hard to parse things with all the info crammed together.

4. Imperial Navy forces

The Lunar and Emperor spaceships aren't in the AMTL or Skitarii list but are listed at the bottom. Should be deleted.

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Approved Army List errors/typos
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:37 pm 
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Most of this deals with using similar language and layout patterns across the doc, and a few have to so with the system itself (hence my comment about "shoe-horning the list into the system" when I PMed you about approval).

1. The God Machines effect is similar to the Avatar's crit, hence the re-use of its wording. The List construction had more to do with the Weapon Mount rule, an attempt to work within the unit types that Epic lays out as a means of customizing a unit.

2.

Emperor Titan - In the system, a weapon can't have a "note" attached to it saying "Counts as a CAP", this was the cleanest way to get the same thing. If you want a note can be but on the unit saying "the CAP is in the legs" or something similar.

On the upgrades for all the Titans, they look equivalent to what's in the list. The only thing that was changed was chaning the weapons to upgrades, which, in the end, is what they are. Again, same result, just trying to work within the unit types and jargon that people are familiar with.

3. If there's a stat error, you're going to have to post it. I thought I copied them over pretty accurately.

4. They're included because they belong to the Imperial Navy Force. Army lists include forces, not units. AMTL has them and doesn't use them, same with the Baran list.

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Approved Army List errors/typos
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:54 pm 
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Yeah, I figured that some of that might be the case but it's hard to know what the system can and can't do. I gotta run but I'll respond more in depth later.

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Approved Army List errors/typos
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:06 am 
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Yay, great to see :)

With the unit notes at the bottom I find the unit datasheets a little difficult to read. Perhaps try just increasing the contrast of the alternating background colour (e.g. #e0e0e0), but ideally it could benefit from borders IMO.

For the Eldar, I find abbreviating "Lance" to "L" a bit peculiar. Likewise Disrupt -> D and Indirect Fire -> Ind. I realise space is at a premium in the datasheets but these seem too terse.

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Approved Army List errors/typos
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 2:00 am 
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Quote:
Emperor Titan - In the system, a weapon can't have a "note" attached to it saying "Counts as a CAP", this was the cleanest way to get the same thing. If you want a note can be but on the unit saying "the CAP is in the legs" or something similar.


Can we just add a weapon called Leg Bastions with the same rules as the CAP and attach that to the Emperor titans like the rest of the weapons it has?

Quote:
On the upgrades for all the Titans, they look equivalent to what's in the list. The only thing that was changed was chaning the weapons to upgrades, which, in the end, is what they are. Again, same result, just trying to work within the unit types and jargon that people are familiar with.


Well the issue is that it really complex when it shouldn't be that difficult because you have everything thrown into a pot with no organization to sort though. That makes it pretty easy to miss things and the way it's organized makes it complicated to build a list with the compendium output.

Quote:
3. If there's a stat error, you're going to have to post it. I thought I copied them over pretty accurately.


It's a challenge to parse through with stuff arranged differently, but off hand, the Ark Mechanicus is "OR" for the PP and OB.
Support missile is Carapace only, though with the elimination of "carapace" and "arm" from the hardpoints, it makes it hard to define what that means.

I know you've put a lot of hard work into this, but I feel that we're getting shot in the foot when it comes to the AMTL list.

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Approved Army List errors/typos
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 4:39 am 
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The version of the God Machines rule is a bit wrong. It doesn't happen when a titan dies but when a titan formation dies - a signifigant difference for Warhound pairs.

I think using the same language as the ATML list would be better. Weapons certainly should be a seperate category for clarity and otherwise there'll be problems as you should be able to take multiple weapons but not multiple of the existing upgrades.

Leg bastions count as Corvus Assault Pod works well and is clear. Listing it with an actual Corvus is unneseceraly confusing for readers as the model doesn't have one.


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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Approved Army List errors/typos
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 3:07 pm 
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Vaaish wrote:
Can we just add a weapon called Leg Bastions with the same rules as the CAP and attach that to the Emperor titans like the rest of the weapons it has?


Like I said, I can't add a note on a weapon. Best I could do would be:

Leg Bastaions - Transport

That's not overly helpful, and would be the only example of this across all lists. How about I give both the Emperor classes Transport and the CAP's "May transport" note?

Quote:
Well the issue is that it really complex when it shouldn't be that difficult because you have everything thrown into a pot with no organization to sort though. That makes it pretty easy to miss things and the way it's organized makes it complicated to build a list with the compendium output.


You're going to have to explain how it's complex. Selecting an upgrade from an alphabetically sorted list is in a good chunk of army lists. It's how it's done on Army Forge too. It's not breaking new ground here.

Quote:
The Ark Mechanicus is "OR" for the PP and OB.

Support missile is Carapace only, though with the elimination of "carapace" and "arm" from the hardpoints, it makes it hard to define what that means.


I kept on digging through 3.23 to find these before I realized you've put out another version. With AMTL being approved you need to bring changes (even minor ones) to Steve so we can vote on the approval. At the very least, it gives me a heads up on this kind of stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Approved Army List errors/typos
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 3:37 pm 
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Quote:
I kept on digging through 3.23 to find these before I realized you've put out another version. With AMTL being approved you need to bring changes (even minor ones) to Steve so we can vote on the approval. At the very least, it gives me a heads up on this kind of stuff.


The ark being OR was in 3.23. The only changes that have been made are to fix typos in the list (Support Missile, carapace only, adding the fire arcs to Emperor titan weapons that got missed). The list has a complete changelog on the last several pages if you ever need to check on things and there's a playtest changes thread for potential changes we are discussing for the list itself.

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Approved Army List errors/typos
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 3:55 pm 
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Vaaish wrote:
The ark being OR was in 3.23. The only changes that have been made are to fix typos in the list (Support Missile, carapace only, adding the fire arcs to Emperor titan weapons that got missed). The list has a complete changelog on the last several pages if you ever need to check on things and there's a playtest changes thread for potential changes we are discussing for the list itself.


Ah, I see it now, it was hidden at the end of the Pin-Point Attack line. Both the changelog and the thread are good, but don't help me if I don't know there's a change in the first place, hence the bump to Steve.

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Approved Army List errors/typos
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 4:41 pm 
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Kyrt wrote:
Yay, great to see :)

With the unit notes at the bottom I find the unit datasheets a little difficult to read. Perhaps try just increasing the contrast of the alternating background colour (e.g. #e0e0e0), but ideally it could benefit from borders IMO.

For the Eldar, I find abbreviating "Lance" to "L" a bit peculiar. Likewise Disrupt -> D and Indirect Fire -> Ind. I realise space is at a premium in the datasheets but these seem too terse.


I darkened the stripe, let me know if that works for you.

On the abbreviations, Ind was what they used in the rulebook, and I'm pretty sure D was used as well. On the webpage you can hover over any of them to get the full special rule name, it's definitely a space thing though.

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Approved Army List errors/typos
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 5:49 pm 
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Disrupt is just "Disrupt" in the rulebook reference sheet (looking at manticore now). Ind is the one I was least concerned about as its several letters at least.

The Swordwind ref sheets uses "Indirect", "Disrupt" and "Lance"

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Approved Army List errors/typos
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 6:45 pm 
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Quote:
You're going to have to explain how it's complex. Selecting an upgrade from an alphabetically sorted list is in a good chunk of army lists. It's how it's done on Army Forge too. It's not breaking new ground here.


It's a loss of affordance and hierarchy that makes it more complex. Instead of looking at the list entry that says "Select X weapons from Y list" you now have a mixture of weapons and titan upgrades all thrown into the same pot and no indication as to how many things you can take until you check the datasheets at the end. On top of that the wording is obscure in an attempt to circumvent the "each upgrade can be taken once per formation".

Which is easier to understand what's expected:

Here is a list of 20 options; some are required and some aren't. Some options can't be used on certain units. You can take any of these once but you can use some of them multiple times.

or

You have three slots, select three options from this list.

The first one is how the compendium is set up. The second how the AMTL list is designed and what goes on under the hood with Army Forge. Basically using the titan list as is in the compedium site is a user nightmare. Yes, you CAN throw everything into a big pot and folks CAN eventually figure it out, but it's not clear or simple.

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Approved Army List errors/typos
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:55 pm 
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Could the upgrades be condensed, so rather than one per weapon it's one per type, like "scout titan weapons" or "battle titan carapace weapons".

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Approved Army List errors/typos
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 3:31 pm 
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Condensed options is doable: Scout Titan Weapons, Battle Titan Carapace Weapons, Battle Titan Weapon, others as needed.

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