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Rule Suggestion: Multi-Rule Barrages.

 Post subject: Rule Suggestion: Multi-Rule Barrages.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:34 am 
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Greetings,

Of late my gaming group has been discussing the barrage rule, and its use with formations that contain either multiple units or multiple weapons with a Barrage attack and differing special rules and is particularly relevant in IG, AMTL and squat lists.

As and example: Imperial Guard Artillery Company with a mix of basilisks and Manticores. Or a warlord titan with a quake cannon and a multiple rocket launcher.

At present, as you are probably aware, the BPs of the different units/weapon systems stack and only the special rules common to all weapons firing are used. This has been clarified in FAQs etc and I'm not under any confusion as to how the current RAW work, what I'm suggesting is that these rules disadvantage barrage weapons in comparison to other weapons.

Proposed solution:
All weapons in the formation with identical rules fire a barrage, then the next group of weapons with identical stats fire a barrage. The additional BM are only applied for the barrage with the most BP.

As an example, IG arty company above, has 6 Basilisks (6BP) and 3 Manticores (6BP + disrupt). IG player fires at unit of orks. Both groups would make an attack, both would gain an additional template and but only place 1 additional BM for a total of 2BM (1 for being shot at, 1 additional BM from a 6BP attack) + disrupt BM from manticore hits and BMs for kills from basilisk hits. Of course hit resolution would require 2 pools of dice, those with disrupt and those without but this is no different than allocating hits to a unit that sustained a sniper or ignore cover hit along with standard hits.

Now before you say this is over the top and powerful consider that no direct fire weapons system or formation is disadvantaged from firing with other weapons. Eg the Volcano cannon doesn't loose TK when a Laser blaster fires AT shots on a Warlord. Nor does a Landspeeder loose MW on its Multimelta shot when the other Landspeeder tornado fires its assault cannon.

The RAW, do seem to disadvantage larger arty formations and definitely disadvantage multiple weapon/rule system formations. In the example IG arty formation above, the basilisk + manticore combo would generate 1 extra template and 1 extra BM over just the basilisks firing alone. Also remember that the 3rd template is often overkill unless engaging large formations. Firing on their own, the manticores would generate 2 Templates, 1 extra BM and have disrupt - doesn't seem like a fair trade, especially when they don't get to ignore slow fire (you only loose the beneficial special rules it seems...)

How may people broke down their guard arty formations or rebuilt their titans due the mechanics of this rule?

If this proves too powerful my next suggestion would be to amend the rule to read:
"The additional Templates and BM are only applied for the barrage with the most BP, in the case of a tie the attacking player chooses which attack benefits" but from my math hammer testing this doesn't seem necessary at this point.

So anyway, please consider this with an open mind and if its over powered or open to abuse, please tell me why and how.


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 Post subject: Re: Rule Suggestion: Multi-Rule Barrages.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:56 pm 
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Interesting idea. You could ameliorate potential abuses of this rule (and problems with timing order) by noting that the template(s) are placed and then the damage worked out from each group in the same area; rather than placing and resolving one group, then placing and resolving the next group.

This could be additionally clarified by a note you work from the largest group of BPs downwards; and possibly with a 'working order' of special rules.

For example, an artillery company made up of three Basilisks, three Manticores (disrupt) and three Bombards (ignore cover) fires at an ork warband.

1) Both the Manticore group and Bombard group generate 6BPs, the Basilisks 3BP; for a total of 15BP. The owning player chooses which of the larger group (6BPs) fires first. He elects to use the Manticores first, in this example.

2) The templates are placed following the normal rules, and the positioning is noted. Hits and damage are worked out from the Manticores. The first template covers five stands of boyz and three nobz, while the second template covers three further stands of boyz. The dice are rolled causing eight hits and six kills, removed as normal. Owing to placement, this leaves only two nobz under the first template and three boyz under the second.

3) Leaving the templates in place, the Bombards now resolve their hits and damage: with a potential five further kills. In fact, the dice are unlucky and only the two nobz stands are destroyed; leaving nothing under the first template.

4) Moving on to the third group (Basilisks), the second template is removed (as the guns do not generate sufficent BP for the additional template. As a result, there is nothing left under the first template, and the Basilisks can cause no damage.

5) Blast markers are then resolved – one for coming under fire, three extra for the total BP (15), eight for the Manticore hits (disrupt), and two for Bombard kills for a total of 14 blast markers added to the orks.

+++
This method makes use of mixed artillery companies (which is a nice option), but has its own drawbacks – if you used the normal rules, you'd get two extra barrage templates (though without the special rules). However, it seems fairly simple, and I like the additional option.

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 Post subject: Re: Rule Suggestion: Multi-Rule Barrages.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:00 pm 
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That's effectively doubling the amount of to-hit dice that the formations rolls each turn. Add a third type of barrage and you're tripling it...

After saying that I think I can come in with it's "over-the-top/powerful".

If you want something a little more balanced to the current points values for a mixed barrage house rule just find the ratio of BPs and carry it over to the hits. As per your example: 6BP regular, 6BP Disrupt or 1:1. Roll your attacks as per a normal 12BP barrage. After your determine what is hit, assume half the hits (1:1) are disrupt. Place BMs for those. Roll to save as normal, just roll two pools (one for regular, one for disrupt) only assign BMs for regular save fails.

Too fiddly for most people, but it ought to give you a little less abstraction.

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 Post subject: Re: Rule Suggestion: Multi-Rule Barrages.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:26 am 
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Gents,

I agree with Ortron that players with mixed batteries and titans are at a disadvantage here. My example would be the Banelord Titan from the chaos list. Here you have the Havoc Rack with no special rules and the Hellstrike Cannon which is MW, IC. Your choice here is to expend all of your Havoc Rack in a single turn or choose not to fire it so that you can get the bonus from the Hellstrike.

In previous discussions about mixed barrage weapons on titans it has focused on the weapon and not the general rule for barrages. I think rather than just having a house rule here that some review is warranted for the barrage rule to bring it in line with the direct fire weapons. Players are paying for the bonuses that weapons provide and should not be disadvantaged for doing so.

I understand that it is quite easy for a guard player to choose an all Basilisk formation or to use multiple batteries of different types as a simple solution. But for things like the Banelord you are fixed into a restricted number of courses of action to utilise your weapons. I know that myself when choosing a chaos force that I will not choose the Banelord due the the restriction imposed by this rule.

Looking forward to further discussion and maybe some play testing.

Cheers
Aaron


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 Post subject: Re: Rule Suggestion: Multi-Rule Barrages.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:03 am 
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Orton's proposed rule idea sound too good to me.

I do agree that it's annoying sometimes the way it is currently. I wouldn't not use a Banelord because of it though. I'd probably fire off the 6 missiles in one go in one turn (combined with the Hellstrike if it's in range), 15BP is worth missing out on the ignore cover and MW from the 3BP one turn.

If you're willing to take the extra time to work it out then as a house rules Dave's suggestion is an excellent one and the best option IMO as it doesn't change the number or templates or hits, just proportions an appropriate proportion of the special rules. I would suggest in the case of a fraction that hit be applied to a regular target e.g. 3 Basilisks and 3 Manticores fire a 9BP 3 template barrage covering 10, 4 hits would be regular and 6 would have disrupt (make part of the house rule that the closest of the targets get allocated the special hits).


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 Post subject: Re: Rule Suggestion: Multi-Rule Barrages.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:52 pm 
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Cheers for the responses and alternative take on things. As stated, the intent was not to make think too OP by similarly help out the larger mixed fromations which are probably under achieving at present. Most IG players I know will split their arty in to batteries and AMTL that I've seen only take 1 type of barrage per titan.

Looking at Dave and Apologist's suggestions, there is merit to both but all three do make for a more complicated and slower resolution of the firing sequence.

My thoughts are that Apologists breaks with the standard rules of generate all hits, before allocation and saving rolls but the idea of limiting all firing to the same point is a good idea and would stop over advantageous positioning of barrage weapons systems.

Daves idea is simpler than mine or Apologists but requires some number crunching after hits to work out what hit has what rule and do standard hits take precedence over those with special rules etc.

Another issue I've realised is how do you allocate a mix of say standard and ignore cover hits with artillery fire. As the owning player usually allocates the hits, they could choose to allocate IC hits to some out of cover models first thus increasing their chances to save etc..

So in an effort to maintain the speed of the activation resolution, and avoid difficult rules situations, how about:

If the combined Barrage Points of the weapon/s with a special rule is greater than or equal to half the total Barrage Points of the attack, rounding down, the entire barrage attack benefits from the special rule.

This means you only place the templates once, and provided a reasonable contribution is made by the weapon/s with the special rule, the effect is transferred to the entire attack. As reasoning, it would be fair to assume that each impact area (barrage template) is receiving a mix of ordnance.

Examples:
IG arty coy (5 Basilisk, 4 Manticore)
- Unit fires 5 basilisk (5BP) & 4 manticores (8BP + disrupt) - The unit fires as a 13BP disrupt attack. Obviously the next turn it can only fire a 5BP attack with no special rules.
- Alternatively the unit fires 5 basilisk (5BP) & 2 manticores (4BP + disrupt) each turn. 4BP is equal to or greater than half 9BP when rounded down (9/2 = 4.5, rounded down = 4 BP) so this attack would be fired as a 9BP + disrupt attack and would be sustainable each turn.
* I don't feel it is OP compared to 9 Basilisks as they have their own advantages in terms of armour and direct fire ability - particularly helpful during a hold activation*

Titan with quake cannon (3BP MW) & apoc missile launcher (3BP disrupt)
- Both wpn systems contribute BP equal to half the total, therefore the attack would be 6BP, MW, Disrupt.

Banelord
- Could fire 2 missiles a turn (4BP) and the Hellstrike (3BP, IC, MW) for a 7BP IC, MW attack?

At first glance the 2 titan examples sound significantly better, but I think in practice the second template will generate few additional hits. Most people who are up against powerful barrage weapons spread out. Also consider they will often be hitting on 4/5+ at best and will therefore cause probably less total hits that a comparative pair of standard direct fire weapons.

This could be further tightened up by improving the wording on additional template placement as currently the additional template does not require LOS and can be outside effective weapon range...

If still too OP, you could chance the wording to "greater than half" but the likelihood is that you would see no difference that what is currently in effect. Keeping the above examples - only the 5 basilisk and 4 manticore example would benefit from the disrupt attack.

I personally like this solution as its more streamlined, and the combined natures of the weapons still get their effect. And its not unrealistic, real world arty often fires a mix of natures to have a greater or tailored effect, Eg: HE with different fuzes, HE & White Phos...

Bit of a change but same intent - now hopefully easier to resolve?


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 Post subject: Re: Rule Suggestion: Multi-Rule Barrages.
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:51 pm 
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Sounds interesting. It would definietly bring out some mixed arty from the bag.

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 Post subject: Re: Rule Suggestion: Multi-Rule Barrages.
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 1:38 am 
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I'd expect that it's unrealistic to fire a barrage that can do multiple special things at once, like kill titans and disrupt. Not that I know much about artillery. I'm just under the impression that barrages are tailored for a task.

In other words, I'd be tempted to limit a barrage to one special rule (shooter's choice), and the other BP are just normal.


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 Post subject: Re: Rule Suggestion: Multi-Rule Barrages.
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 1:58 am 
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Gents,

Schools in session. You can indeed fire mixed barrages and it is the preferred method for achieving good target effects. For instance if I were to engage infantry in dug in defences the gentlemen on the gun line would set fuses to achieve the following; Delay, Airburst and Point Detonation. The aim of this is to have multiple effects on the target through penetration of the ground, Airburst shrapnel raining down and ground bursting munitions to catch targets above ground and aide in suppression.

When firing at a mixed armour and infantry target in the defence of an assault it would be a mix of Airburst HE natures and DPICM. The Airburst is tailored to kill infantry whilst the DPICM is targeting the armoured vehicles.

If I where neutralising a position and did not want them to return fire or observe my advance I would fire mixed HE and smoke to obscure and suppress the target area.

Lastly it is possible to fire precision munitions and standard natures in a barrage. That is about timing and is easily achieved.

I hope that helps people to understand the ability of artillery to deliver a target effect.

L4, can. I get a Mech Coy Comd seal or approval please.

Cheers
Aaron


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 Post subject: Re: Rule Suggestion: Multi-Rule Barrages.
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 11:38 am 
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Thanks CAL, Interesting to get some real world perspective on it.

ortron wrote:
If the combined Barrage Points of the weapon/s with a special rule is greater than or equal to half the total Barrage Points of the attack, rounding down, the entire barrage attack benefits from the special rule.
...Examples

I'd be more concerned about artillery companies made up of Bombards and Manticores, firing an even number of each as possible per turn - the combination of disrupt and ignore cover to 90cm would be pretty nasty.
Or an AMTL Warlord could take 2 Quake Cannons and 2 Missile Launchers and get a 12BP MW disrupt barrage, considerably better and cheaper than current options! 2 Inferno Gun and 2 Missile Launchers is another good possibility for ignore cover plus disrupt.

It would be nice to do something to make classic titans like this useful again though:
Image
Currently this Reaver would loose the advantages for both disrupt and ignore cover to fire it's two weapons together.

Maybe we could come up with some kind of rule where special rules were grouped together per template? So the pictured Reaver would have a two template barrage, one template with ignore cover only and the other with disrupt only?


Last edited by GlynG on Fri May 02, 2014 11:48 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Rule Suggestion: Multi-Rule Barrages.
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 11:43 am 
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It seems to me that the ability to create super ability barrages does make this sort of thing un-balancable. :(
I get where the intent is coming from but I think the current barrage rules work well enough in most situations.

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 Post subject: Re: Rule Suggestion: Multi-Rule Barrages.
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 11:53 am 
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Onyx wrote:
It seems to me that the ability to create super ability barrages does make this sort of thing un-balancable. :(
I get where the intent is coming from but I think the current barrage rules work well enough in most situations.


I'm in agreement with Onyx here, barrage rules are good enough as they are, especially as they're not open to abuse

although frankly I think they need to be re-written from the ground up as the barrage table is pretty pants as it is.....

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 Post subject: Re: Rule Suggestion: Multi-Rule Barrages.
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 12:25 pm 
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Thanks for the feedback guys, I was particularly keen to see how people would try and abuse this.

From some more discussions with my gaming group and the feedback from people here, I'm not convinced the proposed change is too OTT but we'll have to see how it fairs in some field testing.

The examples above from GlynG are ok, and would make for a devastating barrage but in doing so the Titan example looses a lot of effectiveness against other WE and potentially RA formations as well due to lack of hits in comparison to the standard warlord.

The arty example of mixed bombards and Manticores is also good yet wouldn't consistently shoot more than 8 BP a turn and would be limited to 90cm whilst the stock standard 9 x basilisk can do 9 BP a turn, fire directly if they hold and have better armour so I think its a fair trade.

As Kyussinchains points out - the barrage table is wack anyway, any super BP barrage with lots of rules is still generally poor compared to an equivalent points value in direct fire weapons because you loose out as the BP trend higher.

Cheers for you wisdom Onyx - and for tournament play - I do agree KISS for now.
(I see what your doing.. trying to keep the good stuff for the iron warriors.. I'm watching ;) )

My intent here would be a tested optional or alternate rule like the aerospace optional rules or the CAP a CAP action that many people employ that could be offered to players as a tested option.


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 Post subject: Re: Rule Suggestion: Multi-Rule Barrages.
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 1:45 pm 
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ortron wrote:
Cheers for you wisdom Onyx - and for tournament play - I do agree KISS for now.
(I see what your doing.. trying to keep the good stuff for the iron warriors.. I'm watching ;) )

:D
I knew someone would mention it ;)
The reduction of BP from 10 to 9 stopped the auto-break of 3DC War Engines and only having one special ability (Disrupt) means this conversation is about something different. From memory, none of the Iron Warrior formations can take multi-ability weapons.

Just sayin :D

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