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Questions about trenches/fortifications?

 Post subject: Questions about trenches/fortifications?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:45 am 
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I'm (slightly edited) re-posting this from a discussion thread as we lead up to our campaign. One player is using Krieg and I wanted to gain some thoughts on his proposed use of fortifications.

Quote:
How much space can this cover?
The trenches and bunkers must be deployed in coherency with themselves, meaning no trench more than 5cm from another trench. This means that the maximum width of a single Krieg trenchwork is 80cm + 15 gaps of 5cm = 155cm. To this is added 4 bunkers (40cm) plus a maximum of 4 gaps of 5cm (20cm). The maximum total width of the entire defence is now 215cm (slightly wider than the table).

How many units can gain cover?
The Krieg list specifies the trenches fit one infantry per 5cm and 3 in the bunkers, so 16+12=28 will go into the trenchworks themselves.
In addition, according to the FAQ 'For infantry, they can gain cover from simply touching an AV, so it makes sense that would be the standard for claiming other cover. As long as they touch the terrain, they can claim the benefits.'

This means that each 5cm coherency gap between trenches can have an infantry stand in it touching a trench, and the trench will give it a cover save. I'd probably consider one in the trench, one in the gap and one behind the trench. This potentially gives cover to 2 stands for each of the 16 trenches plus 15 stands in the gaps between trenches, plus 3 stands for each of the 4 bunkers plus 4 stands for the gaps between bunkers, or a grand total of 62 infantry stands.

How useful is that?
In game, it's probably not very useful to spread out as much as I described above. You'll get clipped at one end of your line and slaughtered in a very thematic Krieg fashion.

What could be useful however is to realise that with the trench coherency rules it is possible to deploy trenches in much more imaginative ways than just a big line. For example a single large trenchwork with bunkers and some trenches in the front, two trenches (20cm including the gaps) at one end at 90 degrees and a second lines running parrallel to the first (like pi π) can easily give cover to two large infantry platoons that are not intermingled.
Another example is that some areas can have no gaps between trenches at all (to ensure difficult terrain for enemy vehicles) and others can be widely spaced (to increase coverage or to allow your own vehicles passage).
Another is deployment in a curve around a corner when setting up to refuse a flank, with dense bunkers near the centre of the board and spaced trenches near the board edge.

Trenches vs Vehicles
If a vehicle attacks a unit in a trench in CC it has to take a dangerous terrain test but if it contacts a part of the stand that is not within cover (ie the infantry in gaps between the trenches) it would not
If the the stand is within a bunker, building or other feature impassable to the vehicle, the vehicle would not be able to enter CC at all. Apart from other uses to ensure combat with vehicles is firefight rather than cc, it's worth keeping in mind that if they are narrow 4 bunkers with no gaps between them may be able to completely wall-in an objective against the fastest moving elements of some armies.


I have my own ideas on some of this.

I know that infantry next to a trench will not get a cover save for example (I think he's confusing the cover save and the -1 to-hit modifier there). Should an infantry stand next to a trench (not in the trench but in base contact) gain a -1 to-hit modifier for being next to terrain? I don't really think so...

I'm less sure on how trenches and bunkers should be set up. Is it legal to have the 80cm of trenches broken up into 5cm lengths and spaced out as described above?
What does 'Trenchworks and their Bunkers must maintain normal coherency when they are placed on the table' mean? For me it means the Trenches should form one long (continuous) line and the Bunkers can be placed up to 5cm from the Trench... Is this the intent?

I know there are other factual errors (eg, I know vehicles can enter Bunkers with a dangerous terrain test and infantry can occupy a trench at 1 per 4cm NOT 5cm, etc) and it's not these that I'm questioning.
It's more about making sure that fortifications are going to be used as intended.

Thanks for any help.
Steve.

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 Post subject: Re: Questions about trenches/fortifications?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:19 am 
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Hi,
It was me who posted the original thread, so here are two quick disclaimers/confessions:
1) I've never used a trench so don't claim to be an expert
2) I've only played Guard once and epic three times total!

To that I should probably add I am trying to experiment with ways to make trenches worth their cost (or better!) compared to buying more armed activations for their cost, so yes I am looking at the rules to see how to at the very least get 2 formations of 20 stands into a single trench set. Optimisation is the name of the game and I'm completely brazen and unabashed about the fact that I do that with every army in every game I play, so at least you don't have to worry about anyone being offended if you disagree :D

So on with the debate!

Quote:
I know that infantry next to a trench will not get a cover save for example (I think he's confusing the cover save and the -1 to-hit modifier there). Should an infantry stand next to a trench (not in the trench but in base contact) gain a -1 to-hit modifier for being next to terrain? I don't really think so...



FAQ 1.8.4
Q: When is a unit in cover? A fraction of the model, more than half, fully?
A: For infantry, they can gain cover from simply touching an AV, so it makes sense that would be the standard for claiming other cover. As long as they touch the terrain, they can claim the benefits.


Quote:
I'm less sure on how trenches and bunkers should be set up. Is it legal to have the 80cm of trenches broken up into 5cm lengths and spaced out as described above? ....For me it means the Trenches should form one long (continuous) line and the Bunkers can be placed up to 5cm from the Trench... Is this the intent?


IMPERIAL GUARD
1.2.1.2 Fortifications
Fortifications must be set up after Objectives, but before any formations are deployed. They may be set up anywhere a vehicle may deploy in the Imperial
Guard half of the table. You may split up a set of fortifications as desired, as long as the rules for formation coherence are adhered to. For example, you could split
up trenches into several lines, as long as there are 5cm ‘links’ between the different parts of the position. Fortifications count as having a move of zero, and
may ‘garrison’ (e.g., they can be set up in positions that garrison units can be set up in).


Quote:
I know there are other factual errors (eg, I know vehicles can enter Bunkers with a dangerous terrain test and infantry can occupy a trench at 1 per 4cm NOT 5cm, etc) and it's not these that I'm questioning.
It's more about making sure that fortifications are going to be used as intended.


Steve is right about the vehicles and one Infantry Unit per 4cm of length instead of 5cm (I'm still learning the rules and he is pretty much Western Australia's leading Epic Fanatic). From my point of view as long as it's legal and imaginative it's more about making sure that fortifications are going to be used as allowed.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions about trenches/fortifications?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:55 am 
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Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
Quote:
I know that infantry next to a trench will not get a cover save for example (I think he's confusing the cover save and the -1 to-hit modifier there). Should an infantry stand next to a trench (not in the trench but in base contact) gain a -1 to-hit modifier for being next to terrain? I don't really think so...



FAQ 1.8.4
Q: When is a unit in cover? A fraction of the model, more than half, fully?
A: For infantry, they can gain cover from simply touching an AV, so it makes sense that would be the standard for claiming other cover. As long as they touch the terrain, they can claim the benefits.


That's fine, but if you're counting units touching the terrain as being in cover, then they count as one of the units in the trench, and so count towards the maximum number of units in the trench. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

More obliquely, the Epic rules are not a legal document, and should not be read as such. Keep intent in mind; it's obvious that the trench is intended to be a single connected piece with the bunkers in coherency for example. Don't try and exploit holes in the wording of the rules; that's for the kids playing 40k.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions about trenches/fortifications?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:33 pm 
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I don't think its obvious at all that trenches must be in a single line with Bunkers in coherency. There's absolutely no reason not to break up a trench line into two parallel lines, one 5cm behind the other, with bunkers anchoring the ends, for instance. Nor is there a good reason to deny the use of gaps between trenches like this (---- ----) to allow easier passage of AVs stationed behind them. Look at the FW trenchworks, for instance, and see that there are 3-way junctions that would allow the construction of a pi-shaped trenchwork. I'm sure I could find historical examples as well if you want.

As for the touching trenches giving cover, it's gamey nonsense. A trench is basically a long hole in the ground. Try digging a six foot deep hole in your back yard (please don't actually do this; it'll make an awful mess) and stand next to it. Are you any harder to see/shoot? Probably not. Zombo makes a good point about having your cake and eating it, as well.

About making the trenchworks worth their price, ask yourself: is changing 20+ stands of infantry from no save to a 3+ or 4+ save worth 100pts? my experiences with Siegemasters shout "HELL YES!" You'll weather a comparatively ridiculous amount of fire.

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 Post subject: Re: Questions about trenches/fortifications?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:36 pm 
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There are no rules to prevent you having some gaps in your trenchlines, or placing them in a form other than a straight line.

However, most of the supposedly "abusive" placement styles only result in you spreading out your forces massively and being cripled in doing so.

Any reference to one unit per 5cm is a typo and it should be 1 unit per 4cm.

You could just about claim a -1 to hit from touching a trenchline, as per RAW, but it's stretching it a bit. Certainly claiming the cover save too would be against the spirit of the rules.

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 Post subject: Re: Questions about trenches/fortifications?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:11 pm 
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Quote:
How much space can this cover?
The trenches and bunkers must be deployed in coherency with themselves, meaning no trench more than 5cm from another trench. This means that the maximum width of a single Krieg trenchwork is 80cm + 15 gaps of 5cm = 155cm. To this is added 4 bunkers (40cm) plus a maximum of 4 gaps of 5cm (20cm). The maximum total width of the entire defence is now 215cm (slightly wider than the table).

Yes, this is possible. As noted, utility is another matter.

Personally, I don't have an issue with gaps in the trenches. As Spectrar just pointed out, parallel lines of trenches are an obvious deployment option that makes perfect sense, as do "sally port" gaps in the line for counter attackers (like Krieg Death Riders, which are Mounted). In addition to planned gaps, there may be places where the trenches are substandard, collapsed or breached, or just couldn't be dug for whatever reason (like hitting bedrock).

Gaps will make it easier to blast a hole through the ZoC. A 5cm gap means that just one unit gone opens up a hole in the line that the enemy can drive through. And, of course, Infiltrators and units taking Withdrawal moves can rush through gaps regardless of ZoC.

Quote:
How many units can gain cover?
The Krieg list specifies the trenches fit one infantry per 5cm and 3 in the bunkers, so 16+12=28 will go into the trenchworks themselves.

Agreed.

Quote:
In addition, according to the FAQ 'For infantry, they can gain cover from simply touching an AV, so it makes sense that would be the standard for claiming other cover. As long as they touch the terrain, they can claim the benefits.'

This means that each 5cm coherency gap between trenches can have an infantry stand in it touching a trench, and the trench will give it a cover save. I'd probably consider one in the trench, one in the gap and one behind the trench. This potentially gives cover to 2 stands for each of the 16 trenches plus 15 stands in the gaps between trenches, plus 3 stands for each of the 4 bunkers plus 4 stands for the gaps between bunkers, or a grand total of 62 infantry stands.

As far as claiming it, I agree touch is all that's required.

However, as Zombo notes, the trench rules state how many units may claim them per linear distance - a maximum of 1 unit per 4cm. That limit applies regardless of how you go about claiming it. In it, touching in front, behind, to the side, it doesn't matter. Only one unit may claim it per 4cm of trench.

Quote:
How useful is that?
In game, it's probably not very useful to spread out as much as I described above. You'll get clipped at one end of your line and slaughtered in a very thematic Krieg fashion.

What could be useful however is to realise that with the trench coherency rules it is possible to deploy trenches in much more imaginative ways than just a big line. For example a single large trenchwork with bunkers and some trenches in the front, two trenches (20cm including the gaps) at one end at 90 degrees and a second lines running parrallel to the first (like pi π) can easily give cover to two large infantry platoons that are not intermingled.
Another example is that some areas can have no gaps between trenches at all (to ensure difficult terrain for enemy vehicles) and others can be widely spaced (to increase coverage or to allow your own vehicles passage).
Another is deployment in a curve around a corner when setting up to refuse a flank, with dense bunkers near the centre of the board and spaced trenches near the board edge.

As you note, the best deployments are not linear but defense in depth and castle-type setups. When we were testing Krieg, my IG opponent liked to set up a Silo on the Blitz, build a box of trenches around it, and stick fire support in bunkers in the middle. It made quite a tough porcupine.

Another option is to link up with buildings or heavy rubble, so you effectively have extra "lightweight bunkers" from the strong terrain features.

Quote:
Trenches vs Vehicles
If a vehicle attacks a unit in a trench in CC it has to take a dangerous terrain test but if it contacts a part of the stand that is not within cover (ie the infantry in gaps between the trenches) it would not
If the the stand is within a bunker, building or other feature impassable to the vehicle, the vehicle would not be able to enter CC at all.

Sounds right.*Edit: Would be correct if bunkers were impassable.

Quote:
Apart from other uses to ensure combat with vehicles is firefight rather than cc, it's worth keeping in mind that if they are narrow 4 bunkers with no gaps between them may be able to completely wall-in an objective against the fastest moving elements of some armies.

I don't think the bunkers are big enough to block out a 15cm radius around an objective to prevent all claiming/contesting. Even normal (non-Scout) ZoC would have a hard time fencing an objective off completely.

Quote:
I know there are other factual errors (eg, I know vehicles can enter Bunkers with a dangerous terrain test...

Bunkers count as fortifications (1.8.4) and are impassable to vehicles.* Only fortifications that specifically allow vehicles, like gun emplacements, are accessible to vehicles.

* Edit: Whoops. The Bunker rules in Swordwind explicitly state Bunkers are Dangerous Terrain. Personally, I find it odd that a fortification as strong as a building allows a vehicle to enter it, but that's how it's written. Just keep in mind that scenarios may differ on that.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions about trenches/fortifications?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:43 pm 
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I think the vehicle is not entering the bunker, per say. The vehicle gets no bonuses from bunkers, so it more likely is driving over or through portions of the bunker.

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 Post subject: Re: Questions about trenches/fortifications?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:18 pm 
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Guys, I think there is a difference between touching terrain to gain the -1 to hit, and having some part of the base actually on the terrain to gain the cover save (only 1 unit per 4cms etc), in much the same way that AV provide some cover to shooting, but no cover save.

On bunkers themselves, I guess you have to consider the whole gamut of wood and earth style constructions (US in Vietnam, Japs in WWII, WWI trenches etc). These are usually constructed mostly below ground and of relatively flimsy materials, so "Dangerous terrain" sounds about right - in most cases the vehicles roll right over them, but could get a log jammed in their tracks or fall through a roof.
However permanent fortifications are a completely different matter; concrete pill boxes, revetments, tank traps (German WWII coastal defences etc) made of concrete iron that are a whole lot more durable and designed to be impassable (or worse) to tanks and vehicles - so "Impassable terrain" is right for the rules.

As to which are in use, unless the word "fortifications" is mentioned, I would assume that the constructions are of the more 'temporary' type that is "dangerous" to vehicles.

On the best layouts, it really depends on your style and imagination. One layout I have seen used to good effect is two circular Vietnam style firebases relatively close to each other to provide mutual support. These act like castles that prevent the enemy from advancing to far because of cross firing etc, so they must be dealt with first. Historical examples like Hougoumont and La Haie Saint at Waterloo show how they can be used in conjunction with natural cover to stop an enemy advance completely. (New Zealand Paas had exactly the same effect, as did the Gloucesters defence of the Imjin in Korea). However, they do need to be supported from the rear with reserves or off table forces otherwise the enemy can focus on one 'castle' and destroy both in detail.

Stretching a line across the table has the exact opposite to the what is desired, because by diluting the army in this fashion you are weak everywhere and can be attacked with impunity as your forces cannot react - the epitome of a 'clipping' attack.
(Note: WWI battles were normally lost by the attackers, rather than won by the defenders in the above examples)


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 Post subject: Re: Questions about trenches/fortifications?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:39 am 
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Quote:
I don't think its obvious at all that trenches must be in a single line with Bunkers in coherency. There's absolutely no reason not to break up a trench line into two parallel lines, one 5cm behind the other, with bunkers anchoring the ends, for instance. Nor is there a good reason to deny the use of gaps between trenches like this (---- ----) to allow easier passage of AVs stationed behind them.


I agree with Spectrar Ghost, there is no requirement to make a big long single line. The rules actually say
'Trenchworks and their bunkers must maintain normal coherency when they are placed on the table, just like a formation of units.'
That's pretty clear regarding the amount of flexibility allowed in deployment being the same as a normal formation.

As for the rule designers 'intent', you can see this sort of deployment in the Epic Siege book photos. Page 15 has the big long line of 'lets re-fight WW1!' and page 16 has a photo with a single trenchwork in coherence with gaps between 3 layers (and interestingly, some infantry stands sticking out of the ends of the second layer)


Quote:
However, as Zombo notes, the trench rules state how many units may claim them per linear distance - a maximum of 1 unit per 4cm. That limit applies regardless of how you go about claiming it. In it, touching in front, behind, to the side, it doesn't matter. Only one unit may claim it per 4cm of trench.


@Nealhunt - That's actually incorrect, the rules don't actually discuss how many units can claim saves by length, instead they only discuss how many units can be inside them:
'Trenches may hold one Infantry Unit per 4cm of length, Gun Emplacements may hold one Unit and Bunkers may hold three Units.'
Whether that and the fact that Trenches (along with the gun emplacements and bunkers) are listed as a type of terrain is enough to let infantry 'gain cover from simply...touching the terrain' as per the Master FAQ is something you're probably better qualified to answer (since your name is on the FAQ file).

I don't know all the rules yet so have the advantage of having to look everything up :D

Quote:
About making the trenchworks worth their price, ask yourself: is changing 20+ stands of infantry from no save to a 3+ or 4+ save worth 100pts? my experiences with Siegemasters shout "HELL YES!" You'll weather a comparatively ridiculous amount of fire.


What the trenches are really competing with for Krieg is a pair of Gorgons for 125pts. Is changing 20 stands of infantry from 15cm to a 20cm walker move, from no armour save to invulnerable to AP fire while transported, gaining some additonal AP firepower and two 2BP Mortars, and to have two reinforced armoured war engines absorbing D3 wounds in combat worth it?
That's probably another "HELL YES!", which is why its worth weighing them up.


Last edited by Matt-Shadowlord on Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Questions about trenches/fortifications?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:00 pm 
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Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
As for the rule designers 'intent', you can see this sort of deployment in the Epic Siege book photos. Page 15 has the big long line of 'lets re-fight WW1!' and page 16 has a photo with a single trenchwork in coherence with gaps between 3 layers (and interestingly, some infantry stands sticking out of the ends of the second layer)


Don't use Siege as a guide to designer's intent; use Swordwind, that's the official book where the rules originated.

Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
@Nealhunt - That's actually incorrect, the rules don't actually discuss how many units can claim saves by length, instead they only discuss how many units can be inside them:
'Trenches may hold one Infantry Unit per 4cm of length, Gun Emplacements may hold one Unit and Bunkers may hold three Units.'
Whether that and the fact that Trenches (along with the gun emplacements and bunkers) are listed as a type of terrain is enough to let infantry 'gain cover from simply...touching the terrain' as per the Master FAQ is something you're probably better qualified to answer (since your name is on the FAQ file).


If you get a save from touching it, then you count as being in the terrain from touching it, which means you use up one of the "slots" the terrain can contain. You can't have it both ways.

It's the same as a tank driving into ruins; if you're playing that it only has to touch the edge to get a cover save then it also has to take a dangerous terrain test from only touching the edge.

Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
What the trenches are really competing with for Krieg is a pair of Gorgons for 125pts. Is changing 20 stands of infantry from 15cm to a 20cm walker move, from no armour save to invulnerable to AP fire while transported, gaining some additonal AP firepower and two 2BP Mortars, and to have two reinforced armoured war engines absorbing D3 wounds in combat worth it?
That's probably another "HELL YES!", which is why its worth weighing them up.


Gorgons are nice, but so are trenches. Most successful lists use both; one company acting defensively in trenches and another aggressively in gorgons.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions about trenches/fortifications?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:06 pm 
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Zombo:The trench rules have always been intended to allow gaps etc. in the trench lines. Just ask TRC next time you see him.

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 Post subject: Re: Questions about trenches/fortifications?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:07 pm 
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Fair enough, seems silly to me, but fair enough.

I'm definitely right about the touching.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions about trenches/fortifications?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:32 pm 
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Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
Quote:
About making the trenchworks worth their price, ask yourself: is changing 20+ stands of infantry from no save to a 3+ or 4+ save worth 100pts? my experiences with Siegemasters shout "HELL YES!" You'll weather a comparatively ridiculous amount of fire.


What the trenches are really competing with for Krieg is a pair of Gorgons for 125pts. Is changing 20 stands of infantry from 15cm to a 20cm walker move, from no armour save to invulnerable to AP fire while transported, gaining some additonal AP firepower and two 2BP Mortars, and to have two reinforced armoured war engines absorbing D3 wounds in combat worth it?
That's probably another "HELL YES!", which is why its worth weighing them up.


Mounting up an Infantry Company will add to it's speed and firepower, making it an ideal assault formation. It tends to put a lot of eggs in one basket, though. A lucky critical hit will ruin their mobility and force you to leave the Gorgon behind to continue forward, making them vulnerable to both AT and AP fire. A lone Shadowsword can destroy around 225 points in a single shot. You also run the risk of getting your infantry trapped in the tanks if you get assaulted, losing essentially half your engagement strength.

Infantry in trenches, however, are immune to AT fire. AP fire is usually shorter ranged, I'd say well over half is 30 cm ranged, meaning to fire the ememy has to be within engage range. If you get engaged in the trenches you get your Cover Save and all your return fire regardless. They are also very important to protecting your Artillery.

Both types of deployment have their advantages, and as Zombo says, usually it is better to utilize both in a list.

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 Post subject: Re: Questions about trenches/fortifications?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:39 am 
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I've used Trenches in games twice since my original post. As anticipated, using 5cm gaps between some sections of the trenchworks did improve their utility by allowing two areas to be defended with the spaced out trenches linking them for coherency. The two areas were then pretty densely packed with trenches in a fairly conventional way. Actually spreading defences out to maximum coherency isn't likely to be a good idea, since they would then stretch the meaning of the word 'defence'!

I also found that deploying the stands towards the back of the trench pieces (away from the enemy) made it easier for them to find the angle to move towards attackers in counter charge moves without being pulled out of the trench and losing their cover save.

The bunkers are probably the highlight, as putting several 3+ fortifications near each other with 3 stands in each definitely does make a solid bastion.

Q: Bunkers are fortifications with a maximum capacity of 3 infantry stands. Do units in bunkers get to use Fire Fight when opponents charge the edge of the bunker but can't enter it to contact the stands inside?
This seems implied by the rules but not explicitly stated.

Q: As above, for trenches (which unlike normal terrain have a maximum capacity of 1 infantry stand per 4cm, so opponents may not be able to enter for close combat).


On the value of fortifications: Bunkers are far superior to trenches, and once a sufficent volume of trenches are deployed to contain one or more infantry formations razor wire is probably superior to additional trenches (due to the fact it can actually cause damage to infantry without requiring any support). For example Baran fortifications hold 12 stands in trenches and 18 in bunkers, at which point adding more trenches is probably superfluous.

[] Baran fortifications - 75pts for 50cm trenches, 50cm razor wire and 6 gun emplacements or Bunkers
[] Mossinian fortifications - 100pts for 50cm trenches, 50cm razor wire and 6 gun emplacements or Bunkers
[] Krieg fortifications - 100pts for 80cm trenches and 4 bunkers
It looks to me that Baran get the most value from Fortifications, then the Mossinians and finally Krieg.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions about trenches/fortifications?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:16 pm 
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But i have to say the Krieg has more effective units in its army list. Though the Baran and Mossinian lists are very similar to what they can take and while they get storm hammers they still get the "light" leman russ which looks like a long barrelled KV-2. I think in the long run i'd still run Krieg as a hammer and anvil list. The hammer of course is two gorgons with macharius support along with hellhounds, the anvil is a strong line of trenches and bunkers on a flank near your or protecting your Blitz. Though i have not played the list as of yet, they are simply ideas that i have been thinking about since i saw the Krieg book. I'm thinking Medusa platforms, and possibly 3 basilisk platforms playing dual duty(think german 88's in the desert). of course, i'm going to use two infantry companies one with the Hq, and one rough rider unit for reserve and grabbing objectives. Like i said.. just ideas since i finally got my hands on some Otterware defense lines.


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