Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

The oddly specific grim dark cross platform weapons debate

 Post subject: The oddly specific grim dark cross platform weapons debate
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:07 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:30 pm
Posts: 4234
Location: Greenville, SC
AoC requested this thread for us to talk about weapons, specifically it seems the Avenger. So here we are. Discuss. :)

_________________
-Vaaish


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The oddly specific grim dark cross platform weapons deba
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 8:00 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5483
Location: London, UK
Intriguing title LoL :)

FWIW, my views are that in general A/c units should be costed between 75 and 150 each (giving formation costs between 150-300 for two, 250-400 for three). Also a general guide would be to add 25 points to the cost of the first 2 units to cover the 'activation advantage' (hence the TBolts cost of 175) and ideally the formation costs should aim at 200+ to minimise the potential for spam. They should only field 'moderate' weaponry so that the air formations do not have too great an impact on E:A as a whole. This is why ranges are much reduced from any ground-based equivalent, and often the stats are also reduced. Finally, the Eldar units should be the 'best' in the game so the stats of other air units should never exceed any individual stat, and usually be worse for several individual stats.

I realise these are very tight constraints which are necessary to counteract power creep that raises its head with almost every new unit / formation. Hence the need for this discussion with the Avenger.

That said the current Avenger stats don't seem too bad (though 150 a pair seems too cheap) as they fall roughly with the above guidelines, though I have not seen / heard of any play-tests.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The oddly specific grim dark cross platform weapons deba
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:59 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:35 am
Posts: 3338
Location: Norrköping, Sweden.
They're costed at 225/pair, not 150/pair.

_________________
https://epic40ksweden.wordpress.com/

"You have a right to be offended" - Steve Hughes
"Your feelings are hurting my thoughts" - Aron Flam


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The oddly specific grim dark cross platform weapons deba
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:17 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:30 pm
Posts: 4234
Location: Greenville, SC
Correct, in the Skitarii list they are 225 for two, but in the old SoB list they were 150 for two.

I think AoC might be thinking about the stats for the Avenger Bolt Cannon more than the Avenger fighter though, since that's the only thing in the DA list I can see cross over.

_________________
-Vaaish


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The oddly specific grim dark cross platform weapons deba
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:14 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5483
Location: London, UK
So, does the Avenger fill the same role in the various lists?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The oddly specific grim dark cross platform weapons deba
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:19 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:01 pm
Posts: 2518
Location: California
Vaaish wrote:
Correct, in the Skitarii list they are 225 for two, but in the old SoB list they were 150 for two.

I think AoC might be thinking about the stats for the Avenger Bolt Cannon more than the Avenger fighter though, since that's the only thing in the DA list I can see cross over.

Indeed, I was speaking of the Avenger Mega Bolter aka Half of a Vulcan Mega Bolter, or so I'm told. Does that weapon exists in the AM and Sisters list or am I totally confused? lol

_________________
My NetEA Lists:
Fir Iolarion Titan Clan List
Dark Angels List

Always looking to Trade!
Angel's Trade Thread


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The oddly specific grim dark cross platform weapons deba
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:13 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:30 pm
Posts: 4234
Location: Greenville, SC
It does exist, the weapon is named for the Avenger strike fighter. The FW version of it is almost exactly 1/2 the number of shots and range of the Vulcan megabolter. However, the Avenger megabolter on the Nephilim is bizarre in that it's very much underpowered despite being basically the same weapon.

To put into epic terms, The VMB is 4x AP3+/AT5+ 45cm and the Avenger Bolt Cannon is 2x AP3+/AT5+ 30cm.

_________________
-Vaaish


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The oddly specific grim dark cross platform weapons deba
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:54 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 9633
Location: Manalapan, FL
Ginger wrote:
That said the current Avenger stats don't seem too bad (though 150 a pair seems too cheap) as they fall roughly with the above guidelines, though I have not seen / heard of any play-tests.


I would expect that as it is part of the AMTL list that was just approved that it would of had a number greater than 0 play-tests

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The oddly specific grim dark cross platform weapons deba
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:57 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:30 pm
Posts: 4234
Location: Greenville, SC
Quote:
I would expect that as it is part of the AMTL list that was just approved that it would of had a number greater than 0 play-tests


It's not part of AMTL, it's part of the Skitarii list which is NOT approved yet.

_________________
-Vaaish


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The oddly specific grim dark cross platform weapons deba
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:34 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 9633
Location: Manalapan, FL
DOH! The unified nature of the document bit me in the butt! :D

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The oddly specific grim dark cross platform weapons deba
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:28 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 7:27 pm
Posts: 5593
Location: Bristol
If the 40k Nephilim mounts an underpowered version of the Avenger, then the epic one should too rather than match the AM one.

The SM Fire Raptor has twin avengers too (plus 4 x twin linked heavy bolters) and I plan on modeling and fielding some eventually.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The oddly specific grim dark cross platform weapons deba
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:51 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:30 pm
Posts: 4234
Location: Greenville, SC
True, but it's an odd nonsensical underpowered version. The Nephilim version is longer range, fewer shots, and worse AP. Fluff wise both cite the same source for the tech. Additionally, the SM Fire Raptor mounts the same cannon (with the same stats) as the avenger.

Nephilim Avenger Mega-bolter: 48" s6 ap4 heavy 5
Avenger Bolt Cannon: 36" s6 ap3 heavy 7
Vulcan Mega-bolter: 60" s6 ap3 heavy 15

In this case, I would recommend ignoring the DA codex Avenger megabolter stats and just use the stats that are used every other time the weapon shows up.

_________________
-Vaaish


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The oddly specific grim dark cross platform weapons deba
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:56 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:01 pm
Posts: 2518
Location: California
Vaaish wrote:
In this case, I would recommend ignoring the DA codex Avenger megabolter stats and just use the stats that are used every other time the weapon shows up.


I concur Vaaish. I think there very little difference in the 40k stats to be noticeable in Epic. Are these correct?

30cm 2x AP3+/AT5+

_________________
My NetEA Lists:
Fir Iolarion Titan Clan List
Dark Angels List

Always looking to Trade!
Angel's Trade Thread


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The oddly specific grim dark cross platform weapons deba
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:20 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5483
Location: London, UK
Is this the ground-based or airborne version of the weapon?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The oddly specific grim dark cross platform weapons deba
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:11 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:30 pm
Posts: 4234
Location: Greenville, SC
@AoC: Yet those are the correct stats. 1/2 the shots of the VMB and shorter range.

As far as I know the weapon only appears on aircraft.

_________________
-Vaaish


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net