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WWII Air war

CyberShadow

Post subject: WWII Air war

Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:00 pm

Swarm Tyrant

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
Posts: 9338
Location: Singapore

Does anyone know anything about...

- Red Sun/Blue Sky
- Mustangs & Messerschmidts

Any comments on either of these two, what works and what doesnt, what is included (altitude) and what isnt? Also, are they still available?

And, just how large are 6mm WWI aircraft?

Thanks.

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MaksimSmelchak

Post subject: WWII Air war

Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:39 am

Brood Brother

Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:43 pm
Posts: 7258
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Hi Iain,

The place to ask this question is at the Air Pirates Yahoo E-group, available on a link from my blog under "My Yahoo E-groups."

In short, Mustangs is a great game! Played it a ZILLION times! Lots of fun.

Red Sun/Blue Sky is OK... never did much for me.

6mm WWI Aircraft tend to be small enough to fit within a 40mm square base... everything but the bombers.

Please E-mail off-board with more questions and I'll try to answer them.

Shabbat Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

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vanvlak

Post subject: WWII Air war

Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:40 am

Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2003 7:52 am
Posts: 10348
Location: Malta

(CyberShadow @ Aug. 04 2007,22:00)

QUOTE

And, just how large are 6mm WWI aircraft?

Not very - I have purchased an Italian CR42 from GHQ - the model is in storage, but the span is only (from memory) a couple of centimetres. And it has etched brass struts as it's a biplane - fiddly!
Then again the CR42 is not a large aeroplane.

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CyberShadow

Post subject: WWII Air war

Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:54 am

Swarm Tyrant

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
Posts: 9338
Location: Singapore

Thanks guys. A couple more questions...

What is the general next scale up for WWII aircraft? 10mm? Who makes airplanes at this scale?

Does anyone know where I can pick up copies of the above rules - and the Blue Sky suppliments?

Do both sets of rules include altitude and how detailed are they?

Thanks again.

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Reaver

Post subject: WWII Air war

Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:09 am

Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:24 pm
Posts: 756
Location: The grim North... of England!

Can't comment on either rules set, I'm afraid, but Raiden Miniatures do a nice range of 6mm WW2 aircraft.
See them here:
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Raiden-Miniatures

Worth a look.
Regards,
Reaver

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Cuban Commissar

Post subject: WWII Air war

Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 11:54 pm

Purestrain

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 4:32 am
Posts: 2933
Location: Colorado, USA

CyberShadow,

You have hit on a subject near and dear to my heart.

There are so many variations in the rules and in the mnis it is hard to chose how to enter this awesome gaming period. ?As always so much of it is personal choice. ?

I can't give you a difinative answer on what I have chosen because like you I still rersearching and deciding

But I can help you with some info. ?

This free online magazine published by the a group of Utah wargamers has an excellent summary of many aerial combat wargame rules, including the ones you are looking at

Warning Order 17

As far as minis go there is a wide range of choices depending of what kind of air battles you are looking for.

144th scale

There is a good range of 144th scale kist that can be easily used for wargaming. ?There are also many diecast stuff that comes out in this scale. ?My sesearh has revealed that the kits avaliable are not as extensive as one might think. ?if you are looking for less common planes it might get hard, but the famous ones are all avalaible.

A company called True North makes metal 1/144th planes. ?

True North ? ?

1/200th (10mm)

This is the scale my club plays with. ?It is a good compromise between painting/detail and ease of use for wargaming. ?At the club one guy owns all the planes and he got them from a company that is no longer avaliable. ?So I have found three companies that makes them. ?The ranges are very limited

Air200 from Noble minaitures. ?Good casting and clean minis but the planes are a little flat. ?

Air200

Scotia Grendal

I got some of these and I was not impressed by the casting. ?There was lots of flash and pitting. ?But they were the only ones I found at the time with P47s. ?But the general shape of the plane seemed more accurate. ?I woul still chose Air200. ?

Recently I discovered that Skytrex makes a 1/200 line

Skytrex

I didn't discover this unitl last week so I don't know their quality. ?Look under the Action 200 line.

I have a good number of 1/200 scale aircaft. ?There are planes that I want that are missing, mostly bombers. ?My freinds says he will start casting his own soon. ?If he can' do it I will go with 1/300 scale just because I know the minisn are there. ?

1/300 (6mm)

The best thing about 1/300 is the variety avaliable. ?You can find almost any model to suit your aerial combat need. ?The probrem is that in the end the planes are rather small. ?They about one inch length. Me109s are just small planes ?

a couple of companies for you. ?

Scotia makes a huge selection of 1/300 planes available in the states from I-94 enterpirses. ?

I-94

Navwar

Navwar

An article asking for a comaprison between the two.

Article Navwar vs Collectair

Skytrex also makes planes. ?

GHQ also makes some planes but these are 1/285 so may appear larger than the 1/300

1/600

Another scale that has been taking off lately (yes that was a pun). ?Is the 1/600 scale planes from Tumbling Dice. ?

I guess because they are cheap you can really go for mass battles or small playing area. ?I don't own any but there has been alot buzz about them

I have read that a lot of people get them form Dom's decals with excellent service. ?

Dom's Decals

Is is also a yahoo group with lots of pics of the planes. ?

1/600 yahoo group

My planes is to use the Club rules for dogfighting at the club. ?But the guy is still working on realising the club rules. ?

I got Bag the hun to run larger games and maybe even sol games. ?I haven't tried it yet. ?

TFL

I'll let you know how it turns out. ?

by teh way a new WII dogfight rules had a cool video deom on you tube

Check your Six demo

I hope this helped and good luck!

-Lou

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CyberShadow

Post subject: WWII Air war

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:26 pm

Swarm Tyrant

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
Posts: 9338
Location: Singapore

Wow. Almost too much information! Thanks for taking the time and effort to pass on some help.

It seems strange to me that I am only just now getting around to WWII air combat. My house is actually on the old de Havilland airfield, so I really do own a piece of land where the biggest planes of the war were made and designed! How cool is that? My wife is suitably unimpressed, but I find it really cool!

Anyway, I have currently found three rules sets that interest me:

- blue sky/red sun
- mustangs & messerschmidts
- scramble

I came across Warning Order a while ago, but never really sat down with it. I will certainly go through issue 17!

When it comes to minis, I started to wonder if this aspect could be integrated into my recent update of Mein Panzer for WWII ground games. While the MP rules dont actually have the best air combat mechanics (designed purely as ground support in a simple sense - it would be far too cool if I could just use those), I have started to think that sticking with 6mm aircraft would allow them to be used in both games.

I really do like the idea of 10mm planes, but I think that the range of 6mm is another plus for this scale. Still, painting a 10mm plane is something that I will probably have a go at some time. If I can get into a game designed for 6mm, which also allows the use of 10mm models as a more skirmish game, this would be idea!

I think that 1/600 is really going to be too small for me. ? :;):

A friend of mine has Bag the Hun, and I have cast a look over it. It seems interesting, and I would happily play it, but I would like a little more detail in my prefered rules set.

Anyway, thanks again, and let me know if you have any feedback or comments on rules, etc.

My current position, is that I am looking for the rules set first:

- something with a good handful of detail, but which I can play a game of squadron v squadron in an hour or two and isnt very slowed down by the detail.

- a rules set that displays the difference between the various aircraft in use, and therefore encourages their 'correct' use.

- can be hex based, but without hex would be a bonus.

- used for 6mm (1/300 or 1/285), but could also be used for 10mm if required.

It looks like the major aircraft are available in both 6mm and 10mm, which makes things easier.

Thanks again.

EDIT: OK. I have read through Warning Order... although this was a little depressing. Four wargame rules sets, all of which are out of print, compared to loads of board games. Right now, I can only think of Scramble and Bag the Hun as current WWII air war games! Is there a list of the current WWII air game rules available? Anything that ticks the above requirements?

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Cuban Commissar

Post subject: WWII Air war

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:03 pm

Purestrain

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 4:32 am
Posts: 2933
Location: Colorado, USA

CyberShadow,

I think "Check Your Six" may be the rule set your looking for. ?

At the local club we play a home system called Distinguished Flying Cross (DFC). ?It is a WWII version of the WWI air combat game Blue Max/Canvas Eagles. Which you can get for free now

Blue Max/Canvas Eagles

DFC has been in "local" development for over ten years. ?

When I saw the video demo of "Check you six" I thought to myself "that was in essence DFC a few differences". ?

I like the Blue Max/Canvas Eagles mechanics a lot. ?Which I believe are the same mechacnics found in "Check you six" and DFC

-They are fun and east to learn. ?You pick you a move and then all planes move. ?So your trying to out think your opponet

- They are detailed enough. ?Each plane has it's own flight characteristics. ?Don't try to out turn a Zero

- It uses Altitude and Diving ability. Which I think is important in a aerial game. ?

- The number of miniatures required is relatively low. 4 per side and you have enpugh. ?

Bag the Hun (Which I have) is a good game but a very different approach to airial wargaming. ?There is no blind movement/ ?Instead it has a card based movement and firing system. ?So the hope is to get one someones tail hope and to stay there, a sucessful die roll is required, and hope the fire card comes up whiel your still there. ? ?

My only complaint about it is that most planes are all the same. ?The difference between a Spitfire and an ME109 is slight to non existant. ? I sometimes miss that detail.

But the game can handle large number of planes. ?The Blind movement is best played with only one or two planes per player. ?

I have Bag the Hun to play solo games. ?Because the cards make it easy. ?With my friends I like to play DFC because of the guess work and dogfighting aspect. ?

The closest thing to DFC I have seen published is Check you six. ?I may order a copy of the rules here soon, but I still am waiting for my friend to realease his own rules.

Local loyaty you know ?

I hope that helps ? ?

-Lou

P.S.- The Mustang WWII rules are avaliable for free here. Just to let you know

Mustang Rules

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Cuban Commissar

Post subject: WWII Air war

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:12 pm

Purestrain

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 4:32 am
Posts: 2933
Location: Colorado, USA

One more thing if you what pictures of 1/285 planes next the to 10mm stuff let me know. Or next to almost anything in epic range as a good comaprison as well.

Thanks

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Legion 4

Post subject: WWII Air war

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:10 am

Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36947
Location: Ohio - USA

You can tell C/C is a former "Zoomie" ! :;):

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

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Cuban Commissar

Post subject: WWII Air war

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:14 am

Purestrain

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 4:32 am
Posts: 2933
Location: Colorado, USA

I'l let this explain my views....

Having passed the enlistment physical, John was asked by the doctor,

"Why do you want to join the Air Force, son?"
"My father said it'd be a good idea, sir."
"Oh? And what does your father do?"
"He's in the Army, sir."

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Legion 4

Post subject: WWII Air war

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:29 am

Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36947
Location: Ohio - USA

Yes, my father had a similar response to me wanting to join the ABN after he served as an Infantry SGT in WWII ! ?LOL ! ? :laugh:

Sorry to go OT !

_________________
Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

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CyberShadow

Post subject: WWII Air war

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:51 pm

Swarm Tyrant

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
Posts: 9338
Location: Singapore

Thanks for more information. I actually found the Mustangs rules just before checking here! But, these are different to Mustangs and Messeschmidts rules.

To summarise, the games that I am currently aware of/which currently have potential:

Bag the Hun - A little to simplistic for me.

Distinguished Flying Circus - Not yet available.

Mustangs

There is also supposed to be a WWII version of C21 from Wessex... again coming soon.

The front runners for me are:

Check Your 6 - Need to find out more about this, but seems to require specific basing.

Mustangs and Messerschmidts - Out of print, but well liked.

Blue Sky/Red Sun - This sounds very interesting, but is out of print.

Scramble - I need to find out more about this game.

Some thinking is required... Thanks.

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CyberShadow

Post subject: WWII Air war

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:16 pm

Swarm Tyrant

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
Posts: 9338
Location: Singapore

Update

Well, in fairly typical C/S fashion, I have done a radical left turn on this... and ordered a copy of the Scramble rules and the suppliment, Angels 15! ?

I looked at the Blue Sky rules, and the three suppliments for it. This rules set seems fairly simple, and aimed at ship destroyer actions. It also uses hexes, which I am not really bothered about a lot but if I get into a hex game then I will look more at Check Your 6.

I sifted through the TMP boards and found a few threads. It appears that Scramble deals with the game with no hexes, a minor advantage, includes over 100 planes with the suppliment, deals with altitude, weather, spotting, anti-aircraft fire, pilot ability as well as gunner ability and lots of other variables, and remains playable. Generally, it ticks all the boxes and gets good feedback without being pushing cardboard around, or requiring a lot of special basing for the aircraft (something that I discovered could be a problem!).

I may well get a second set of rules, for variety, and will look closer at Check Your 6, Luftwaffe 46 (a continuation of Blue Sky), and Duel of Eagles.

So, thanks for your help guys. When these rules arrive I will let you know what I think, give you an overview... and probably ask for advice on warplanes!

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Cuban Commissar

Post subject: WWII Air war

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:28 pm

Purestrain

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 4:32 am
Posts: 2933
Location: Colorado, USA

Keep us in the loop

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