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Any other playtester notice this?

 Post subject: Any other playtester notice this?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2003 6:21 pm 
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Chern posted an E-mail a little while back (about a week ago) on the E-A playtesters board (not here at Epicomms) and it was deleted along with my reply to it (and Jervis' reply as well).

Chern's E-mail included a plea to Jervis that he try to release if at all possible more than three basic armies and he also mentioned that he thought that that was one of the reasons why he thought Epic40k didn't sell well.

Jervis wrote that he disagreed about why Epic40k didn't sell so well and explained that the three E-A starter armies (SM, IG, and Ork) were because of miniature constraints (can't support production of too much lead at one time).

Then I responded that I respectfully disagreed with Jervis about the failure of Epic40k, understood about minature constraints, and explained my position about Epic40k's failure including examples of local players in my store ?and why they probably wouldn't get into E-A if it has a limited selection of forces. I included that information also as a means of politely requesting that the standby lists be published at the game premier. I was careful to put everything politely in good English with proper grammar. ?

It looks like Jervis (or the manager of the E-A playtester forums) deleted all of the posts. At any rate, they're not there anymore. I'm a little upset about it. They're wasn't even an E-mail sent to me explaining why or even mentioned that they'd been deleted. Not that I expect Jervis and crew to have all the time in the world to do such things, but I'm still a little disappointed. ?

If the E-mail had been rude or not related to E-A then I can understand, but it was polite and game-related. Maybe Jervis felt the E-mail wasn't sufficiently related to playtesting since it discussed Epic40k's poor performance?

I don't know, but it's rather disconcerting to have one's posts deleted.

Any other playtesters have a similiar experience (posts deleted)?

I don't want to give bad press to the E-A playtester board and hope to contribute more as a playtester if this E-mail doesn't get me in trouble.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

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I'm sure Primarch would love this post. ?}:)

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 Post subject: Any other playtester notice this?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2003 8:16 pm 
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Quote (MaksimSmelchak @ 16 2003 Feb.,17:21)
If the E-mail had been rude or not related to E-A then I can understand, but it was polite and game-related. Maybe Jervis felt the E-mail wasn't sufficiently related to playtesting since it discussed Epic40k's poor performance?

I don't think its related to EA though. Its a business decision and its been decided.

I can see that Jervis wouldn't want to discuss something like that especially since there doesn't appear to be anything to do about it.

Or it could have been an accident.

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 Post subject: Any other playtester notice this?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2003 10:40 pm 
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I saw the first two posts of this, but unfortunately missed yours. It is very unlikely that the post was deleted by accident. To be honest, my guess would be that Jervis or someone at Fanatic felt that it was opening the floodgates a little too much. The post was fine, on topic and I am sure, polite. But, I could see that if it was left there it would have attracted a lot of attention and possibly soured the air of the boards and taken the emphasis away from the purpose.

I would guess that Jervis had no problem with the way that the thread was at that time, but I would also have had concerns about how the thread would have progressed, and it would be easier to stop it before it did. And, if left, he could have been accused of being biased and deleting it when everyone was looking.

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 Post subject: Any other playtester notice this?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 1:15 am 
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Hi!

So it begins.

Look, regardless on how open minded or unbaised people approach EpicA it has an ENORMOUS handicap to ovecome. That is, all the disappointed fans that never got a full miniatures release after epic 40k flopped. I mean, if I'm a chaos or tyranid player what true incentive do I have to play Epic A? Especially when my army is not "featured". "get you by" lists are just not going to cut it. Actions speak louder than words and GW's actions in the past speak volumes.

Maksim, Jervis and GW, while they say that they understood why epic 40k failed, the truth is they DONT. Jervis STILL defends his design choices with epic40k, he STILL denies what a colossal screw up the release schedule was and he still denies to "face up" with the grievences of the epic fan base regarding these screw ups. Simply put, expect no real dialogue with them unless you tow the "party line"

In typical GW style marketing desicions have been made and your post was deleted because they dont want it questioned.

Face it people, the vibes that Epic A will bomb are all around us, and, I may add, it will have NOTHING to do with the merits of the games rules or mechanics, but EVERYTHING to do with yet another monumental marketing fiasco.

You get what you put into it, in this case nothing.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Any other playtester notice this?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 1:17 am 
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Maksim-Smelchak,

You might want to return to the Playtest page and look at page "two" of the posts. Not only is the subject still there but so is Chernobyl  and your posts. No one has deleted it. It is still there. I just checked. In fact for those who wish to read Maksim-Smelchak's post (well done in my opinion) the tytle of the tread is "Tau?/".

dafrca

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 Post subject: Any other playtester notice this?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 1:25 am 
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Primarch wrote:

"In typical GW style marketing desicions have been made and your post was deleted because they dont want it questioned."

Or it could be that Maksim-Smelchak did not see it on page one and Assumed it had been deleted rather then assuming it had dropped far enough on the list to get pushed to page two.

Look, I am the first to say GW has ignored the fans and that some of their actions do not make sense to me. I just think we need to keep the "Big Bad Corporation" reaction to a minimum. Most of GW's screw ups are caused by their egos not by some grand corporate conspiracy.

dafrca

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 Post subject: Any other playtester notice this?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 2:17 am 
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Hi!

Point taken dafrca.

I'll give the good 'ol boys from Fanatic the benefit of the doubt.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Any other playtester notice this?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 4:02 am 
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Quote (primarch @ 17 2003 Feb.,00:15)
the vibes that Epic A will bomb are all around us

Considering that this comment is coming from you I think it has not validity whatsover.

And. I think you so-called "epic fans" need to "put up or shut up".

You have the ability to join an open beta test of the new game and I seem to notice that most of you prefer to sit back and gloat about how the new game is going to tank.

Rather crappy attitude if you ask me.

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 Post subject: Any other playtester notice this?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 3:46 pm 
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Hi!

You seem to be somewhat sensitive regarding critisism regarding Epic A outcome pixelgeek.

The fact remains you have yet to bring any compelling arguments to those points I have raised here and elsewhere. YOUR attitude is no different from those attacks I received when I forecasted Epic40's demise prior to release. Time proved my statements then as they will prove then now.

If you like Epic A thats fine, I respect your views, just respect mine and leave the angry comments out.

As for put up and shut up, I have run Net Epic for 6 years, coordinated 5 versions and moderate a list with over 330 people and continue to support those who like the older versions of the game to this day. The more appropriate question s what have YOU done for epic. Don't throw stones when you have a glass roof.

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 Post subject: Any other playtester notice this?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 4:12 pm 
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Dafrka,

I'll check out the "Tau" post today and see what's happeneing, but the other day ago when I checked, it wasn't there.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

To all others,

Thanks for all the great responses. It feels good to get a little input.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

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 Post subject: Any other playtester notice this?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 5:57 pm 
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Hay Maksim-Smelchak,

I would have been mad as well if my post had been deleted. I was shocked when you said it because I had just read your comments that morning.  I must say the whole post was well written but the comment I liked the most was:

"E-A is a Specialist Game which means it is primarily seeking to keep old blood as GW customers and Epic fans. However, for it to survive, I would imagine that it would need to attract new blood, that is to say players who never played Epic before and reattract the players who became disenchanted and sold their armies. Almost all of the E-A playtesters are old blood, big Epic enthusiasts, and have at least one good-sized Epic army and probably many more as well. I imagine that if you took a poll of playtesters, we'd avergae out as having 3 to 4 armies each or more."

"E-A has three forces: IG, SM, and ORK. While SM and IG can oppose each other, the fluff (as in Armageddon background as well as 40k universe fluff) indicates the the IG and SM are allies. That means that there are only 2 OPPOSING forces in that game: Imperials and Orks. Most new blood players read the fluff and will not want to pit IG and SM against each other. [snip] While most playtesters have the patience to wait for the new armies, those highschool students don't and won't buy in until they see the game well supported."

You put into these two paragraphs the basic comments I too am receiving. I have a couple of friends who have agreed to play. One has pulled out his old Marines and another found his old bug army. The fact is two others point blank said they would play but they would not buy unless they could buy an army at the same time. One Chaos and the other Eldar. Well you can see it agrees with what you are seeing at your end.

dafrca

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 Post subject: Any other playtester notice this?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 7:16 pm 
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Hi!

I agree that Maksim placed his points quite politely and eloquently. He is also right in regards to the gist of his post that many more players would be more enthusiastic about Epic A if it supported more armies at the get go. That has been my experience as well as far as comments on and off the net epic list.

Also, I would have thought it would have been a better idea if the three "featured" armies were armies that were not supported in Epic 40k, like chaos or tyranids. Perhaps a boxed set with SM, IG, chaos and Tyranids would have been better, at least as a show of good faith (sorta like we know we didn't support these armies, but look now, we are starting with those first!).

Of course having all armies supported up front would be better, but Fanatic/GW have made up their minds on this.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Any other playtester notice this?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 8:15 pm 
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Quote (primarch @ 17 2003 Feb.,14:46)

You seem to be somewhat sensitive regarding critisism regarding Epic A outcome pixelgeek.


Nope, I just think you're utterly negative and with no apparent reason. And I think you post comments that really ought to be countered since you are somewhat sensitive regarding anything positive being said about the game


The fact remains you have yet to bring any compelling arguments to those points I have raised here and elsewhere.


Thats primarily becasue you don't post any facts yourself. You simply post opinion and innuendo and I fail to see how someone can post facts to counter that.

Most of my commetns also are of the "what are you basing that on since you have no information" and "why are you so #### negative" variety.

Time proved my statements then as they will prove then now.

Convenient way to avoid having to back your comments up.

As for put up and shut up, I have run Net Epic for 6 years, coordinated 5 versions and moderate a list with over 330 people and continue to support those who like the older versions of the game to this day.

This is the core of the matter.

You post negative comments about a new version of Epic and I think that you really ought not to since you are the developer or maintainer of at least two competing versions of the game.

I think you have an unstated, investement in seeing EpicA fail and I think that you comments about the game are designed (consciously or not) to ensure the continued success of your products.

I think that it is basically dishonest of you to make commetns like that in public forums without stating your own vested interest.

The more appropriate question s what have YOU done for epic.

I'm beta testing the new game to make sure its the best possible game for Epic gamers and gamers in general.

Sorry if thats not as important as posting crap to messagebaords to protect a set of homebrew rules.

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 Post subject: Any other playtester notice this?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 9:34 pm 
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OK, if this thread does not get back to a discussion, I will close it. I hate jumping in like this, but there are a relatively few members here, and bad feeling is really what these boards do not need. Everyone has the right to have an opinion, voice their opinion and discuss their opinion, whatever that opinion is. This is fine as long as conversation does not disolve into abuse hurling.

If you want to keep discussing politely and civilly, then go ahead. If things continue along this path then I will close this topic. If things get really bad then I have warnings to hand out  :l  (look at me... power trip!  :p ).

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 Post subject: Any other playtester notice this?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 10:05 pm 
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Hi!

The moderator has spoken, at least for me, the matter is closed.

Primarch

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