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Suppression question

 Post subject: Suppression question
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:35 am 
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I had a formation that included a single Tyranid Nest Swarm WE on a very large base. The formation was firing at something side on to the spread of the formation and due to the positioning the Nest was *both* the closest and furthest target.

How is suppression decided in such a circumstance? Could the Nest swarm be supressed as it was the furthest? Or does the fact it is also the closest over-rule the fact it’s furthest? We had a difference of opinion how to play it.


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 Post subject: Re: Suppression question
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:58 am 
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I would say that furthest trumps closest as you effectively assign blast markers 'back to front' to determine which units are suppressed. As the nest swarm is at the back of the unit, it would be first in line to recieve the suppression from the blast markers, regardless of whether it's also at the front of the unit

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 Post subject: Re: Suppression question
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:01 am 
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To help people visualise this.
Attachment:
Photo 12-08-2018, 13 34 32.jpg
Photo 12-08-2018, 13 34 32.jpg [ 220.26 KiB | Viewed 3830 times ]

The target formation is the top central formation of Storm Troopers.

Sixth game mind fart, we got it wrong as the Nest can't be suppressed as it doesn't have the ranged shot. D'OH

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 Post subject: Re: Suppression question
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:09 am 
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Yeah sorry again re: the range issue. I really wasn't with it that game after such little sleep.

Leaving the range aside I'm curious to see what others think re: suporessing a closest and further model though.


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 Post subject: Re: Suppression question
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:26 am 
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I've whipped up a diagram in paint

Image

it shows a gorgon and a stand of infantry with 3 blast markers, for the purpose of the situation we assume the infantry has an autocannon shot, and also that the enemy is at the top of the picture

I would play it as the rules in 1.9.6 state:

Quote:
hits are allocated ‘from the front to the back’ of a formation. Note that this is the opposite of suppression


With this in mind, the gorgon is clearly at the 'back' of the formation and as there are three (very crappily drawn) blast markers, they would be assigned to the three units at the back, in this case the Gorgon, suppressing its mortars/heavy bolters

Honestly I can't see how it could be interpreted any other way, the fact the gorgon is at the 'front' of the unit has no bearing on the suppression situation, and indeed the fact that it also at the 'back' of the unit doesn't mean that if the formation came under fire, the first hit would be applied to the infantry

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 Post subject: Re: Suppression question
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:35 am 
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Thanks! Yeah that's my interpretation too. At the time Tim thought the other way, though he's since mentioned he thinks he was wrong to. I just wanted to ask generally and confirm.


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 Post subject: Re: Suppression question
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:41 am 
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kyussinchains wrote:
Honestly I can't see how it could be interpreted any other way
Sixth game at Britcon mind fart. With a decent amount of sleep, over the jet-lag and head out of holiday mode I can see that I was wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Suppression question
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:43 am 
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Tiny-Tim wrote:
kyussinchains wrote:
Honestly I can't see how it could be interpreted any other way
Sixth game at Britcon mind fart. With a decent amount of sleep, over the jet-lag and head out of holiday mode I can see that I was wrong.


that wasn't meant as a criticism, more an invitation to show me where I'm wrong ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Suppression question
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:53 am 
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The way I was justifying my stance was that if my formation was being engaged I would have to move towards the closest enemy which was the Nest and not the Dactylis. As it was the closest enemy the Dactylis should be further away and suppressed.

Joe put me straight.


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 Post subject: Re: Suppression question
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:23 pm 
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1.9.2 wrote:
Measuring Ranges

You must decide with your opponent how you will measure the range between two models during a game. The method used by the author (and the default you should use if you can’t agree to an alternative) is that a weapon is in range if any bit of the attacking weapon is within range of any part of the target model (or at least one of the models on a target stand).


Given that, measure the distances from each weapon in your formation to the closest enemy in the target formation. The one that is greatest would be the one you suppress first.

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 Post subject: Re: Suppression question
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:11 pm 
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Interesting! An opposite take to what others have thought there Dave.

What about when - as with the Hive Nest - there isn't any specific point on the model that could be identified as a weapon? Stats wise the Nest doesn't have a shooting attack, only weak FF6+ attacks based on ripper swarms coming out and attacking nearby things. If you take the whole thing then the weapon is both nearer and further.

Edited to add: Dave - gven that it's a unit being supressed and not a partiuclar weapoon I've assumed the positioning of the unit is the important bit rather than that of any particular weapon system? Wouldn't doing it by individual weapon positioning get unnecesarily complicated and cause more problems? It could be possible to have a unit that has one weapon system closer to the enemy than another model and one further away, should one of the model's weapons be supressed but not the other??


Last edited by GlynG on Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Suppression question
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:15 pm 
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GlynG wrote:
Interesting! An opposite take to what others have thought.

What about when - as with the Hive Nest - there isn't any specific point on the model that could be identified as a weapon? Stats wise the Nest doesn't have a shooting attack, only weak FF6+ attacks based on ripper swarms coming out and attacking nearby things. If you take the whole thing then the weapon is both nearer and further.


in that case it would most likely be a 5-minute warmup item to discuss

I've never had this come up before which surprises me, I've definitely played 'any part of the model in range means you're in range' or 'any part of the base' which helps if using various models and proxies

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 Post subject: Re: Suppression question
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:37 pm 
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GlynG wrote:
Wouldn't doing it by individual weapon positioning get unnecesarily complicated and cause more problems? It could be possible to have a unit that has one weapon system closer to the enemy than another model and one further away, should one of the model's weapons be supressed but not the other??


Hasn't been an issue here, when the Cobra's D-Cannon is in range sometimes the Shurtiken Cannon isn't (seriously, why is it so far back!). But we usually only do it for WEs anyway. For AVs it rarely matters and it's usually easier to do closer part of the model. We don't measure to Rhino stormbolters for FF...

And no, suppression is by the unit. If one weapon is in range with a LoF the unit can be suppressed. If a unit has multiple weapons you use the one closest to the enemy for the purposes of suppression.

If there wasn't a weapon on a model (e.g. Brood Nest) I'd measure to any part of the model.

I don't understand the confusion here though. Do you measure to the back of a model to see if it's in range to shoot? No. So why would you measure to the back of the model for the purposes of suppression? Measure the shortest distances and use those. Whether it''s to the model or it's weapon doesn't matter.

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 Post subject: Re: Suppression question
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:34 pm 
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yeah part of this is exactly the reason we did base to base conventions. in the example above by Kyuss the gorgon would be the closest even though it stretched behind the next closest. Any part in was in for the unit. Range was shortest path between two bases.

I should add this is how the vassal module is set up to support in/out/closest in the range finder as well. How very interesting... :whistle

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 Post subject: Re: Suppression question
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:43 pm 
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I have never thought about this, it must have come up many times but I just automatically play it by looking at which units are at the back. The rules don't say suppress the units with the greatest range measurement, they say suppress the ones at the back (of those in range). I'm not looking for the ones that have to shoot the furthest, but the ones literally positioned at the rear.

So I simply check:
1. Which ones are in range and LoS?
2. Which one is at the back?
3. Repeat 2 until all BMs counted

For this reason I am looking at the back of the model.

Totally see how you can play it the other way, I am just interpreting the words in the rulebook literally is all. Interesting one!

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