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Marine predators and other line tanks
nightserpent	Post subject: Marine predators and other line tanks Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 9:53 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 5:34 pm Posts: 88 Location: Boston, Massachusetts, USA	a friend that is also starting E:A is interested in starting an army that primarily focuses on the big toys... mostly titans and baneblades, etc. How balanced will this be for the rest of us with more balanced lists (equal mix of infantry, vehicles and titans)?  I know, points-wise, that it supposedly would be equal... but that doesn't always mean it is.  For example, in 40K, 250 points of gretchin can't even scrape the paint off of a land raider. do little guys (in force) have a decent chance of taking down the big guys?? _________________ pics of my minis
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Legion 4	Post subject: Marine predators and other line tanks Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:06 am
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm Posts: 36949 Location: Ohio - USA	Remember E-A is like most of the Epic games before it, the Templates, Cards, etc. that make up the respective Army Lists limit the number of War Engines/Titans that an Army may field.  Can lighter troops and vehicles take'm down ?  How good of a commander are you ?   _________________ Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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dafrca	Post subject: Marine predators and other line tanks Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:25 am
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:02 pm Posts: 10956 Location: Burbank, CA, USA	Quote (nightserpent @ 13 2003 Aug.,13:53) do little guys (in force) have a decent chance of taking down the big guys?? Yes, keep in mind two things, the assault rules do not favor titans. In fact I have watched more then one titan get pulled down by assault troops. 2nd, the more "big toys" he has tken then more then likely you have more activations then he does. Use them. Leave the units to last that you want to use first on the next turn. It is real ugly to have a titan hit by a Shadowsword and then at the start of the next turn hit him again. (If he is still there.) Titans are good, butthey are far from "all mighty". They can be taken down. dafrca _________________ "Every Man is a But Spark in the Darkness"               - Cities of Death, page 59 Come fight me, if you dare...... http://dd-janks.mybrute.com
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nealhunt	Post subject: Marine predators and other line tanks Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2003 3:05 pm
Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA	I think you will have an advantage, actually.  Combined arms is definitely where it's at in EA.  Lots of big toys become vulnerable in 2 ways: 1)  Tactically.  As dafrca said, having more activations gives you additional flexibility.  You can use "cheap" activations to force him to move, then react with your important forces. 2)  Assaults.  While I don't think titans are weak in assault, they are vulnerable to small units in a way that they aren't in a long-range firepower duel.  A swarm of small units (even if they only have AP weapons) can have a shot at doing some damage to a titan in assault. If you break a titan in assault... well... they don't take a lot of damage, but it does cause them command and control problems.  That will fed back into your tactical advantage. 3) In reference to your specific forces, Orks can field Titan Killers in most formations (Oddboy upgrades).  A couple of Blitz Brigades with an Oddboy each can give scout titans and superheavies a LOT of heartburn. Hope that helps. _________________ Neal
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dafrca	Post subject: Marine predators and other line tanks Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2003 10:24 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:02 pm Posts: 10956 Location: Burbank, CA, USA	Quote (nealhunt @ 14 2003 Aug.,07:05) I think you will have an advantage, actually. ?Combined arms is definitely where it's at in EA. ?Lots of big toys become vulnerable in 2 ways: 1) ?Tactically. ?As dafrca said, having more activations gives you additional flexibility. ?You can use "cheap" activations to force him to move, then react with your important forces. 2) ?Assaults. ?While I don't think titans are weak in assault, they are vulnerable to small units in a way that they aren't in a long-range firepower duel. ?A swarm of small units (even if they only have AP weapons) can have a shot at doing some damage to a titan in assault. If you break a titan in assault... well... they don't take a lot of damage, but it does cause them command and control problems. ?That will fed back into your tactical advantage. 3) In reference to your specific forces, Orks can field Titan Killers in most formations (Oddboy upgrades). ?A couple of Blitz Brigades with an Oddboy each can give scout titans and superheavies a LOT of heartburn. Hope that helps. You seem to always say it better then I do.   I agree with you 100%. It is not that the Titan is weak in assaults, it is just the rules do not give them any real advantage either. I watched a pair of Wolfhounds get malled by a swarm of bugs. It was ugly, but in the end the Titans went down and the swarm, smaller but still in tact, moved on. dafrca _________________ "Every Man is a But Spark in the Darkness"               - Cities of Death, page 59 Come fight me, if you dare...... http://dd-janks.mybrute.com
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primarch

Post subject: Marine predators and other line tanks Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 12:03 am

Brood Brother Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am Posts: 27069 Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA

Hi! I agree with you 100%. It is not that the Titan is weak in assaults, it is just the rules do not give them any real advantage either. I watched a pair of Wolfhounds get malled by a swarm of bugs. It was ugly, but in the end the Titans went down and the swarm, smaller but still in tact, moved on. Are you kidding?! Well, I'm from the "titans king of the battlefield" school, I could NEVER accept a result like that. For me the best shot for  anon titan units taking out a titan is sheer firepower, just like the old fluff stories, grunts taking out titans in close combat should be a feat that is next to impossible. In my experience when rules foster this can of phenomenon, you cease to see them in games. Now, I dont want titans to dominate the game, but not to be invalidated either. There was a similar scenario going on with second edition. In the original rules any weapon that hit could down a shield. This led to the ploy of buying cheap troops (like an IG platoon of ten models for example) to take down the shields and then hit it with the scarse "big power shots". Titans stoped appearing in games rather quickly, not worth the points. In TL they added the rule that weapons with a -1 modifier were needed to down a shield, instant reversal, titans were once again fielded. Its a hard balance to strike, but to give dominance to either side of the issue is not good game design. Primarch _________________ Primarch The Primarchload Magnetized Titans Tutorial Net Epic Gold Heresy Rules

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Mojarn Piett	Post subject: Marine predators and other line tanks Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 8:35 am
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 7:35 am Posts: 5455 Location: Finland	I'm with Primarch on this one. For some reason there's a soft spot in my heart for enything which is heavily armed and armored. I can understand infantry beating a regular tanks with ease, but doing so to walking buildings is a different matter altogether. In fact, it reminds me of a comment a playtester wrote about some incarnation of civilization: -The cave men scream in terror as a jet fighter swoops over them but them pull themselves together and shoot it. The fighter becomes a pin-cushion of stone-tipped arrows and explodes. The warriors shake their stone axes at a nearby battleship and shout: "Come here and we'll sink you!". _________________ I don't know and I let who care. -J.S.
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primarch

Post subject: Marine predators and other line tanks Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 2:10 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am Posts: 27069 Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA

Hi! In fact, it reminds me of a comment a playtester wrote about some incarnation of civilization: -The cave men scream in terror as a jet fighter swoops over them but them pull themselves together and shoot it. The fighter becomes a pin-cushion of stone-tipped arrows and explodes. The warriors shake their stone axes at a nearby battleship and shout: "Come here and we'll sink you!". As an avid civilization player I'm familiar with the angst caused by "spearmen killing tanks". Its a very appropriate analogy in this case since one thing is a viable change to inflict casualties and another when its almost impossible. In the latter case, for game design purposes it just should happen. Primarch _________________ Primarch The Primarchload Magnetized Titans Tutorial Net Epic Gold Heresy Rules

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nealhunt	Post subject: Marine predators and other line tanks Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 6:46 pm
Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA	dafrca>> You seem to always say it better then I do. Stop.  you're making me blush. Primarch:  It's not like it sounds.  I think Titans are well-balanced in a combined arms setting.  This is a points-based game, after all, and 650 points of stuff ought to at least have a shot at taking out a Reaver. _________________ Neal
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dafrca	Post subject: Marine predators and other line tanks Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 7:12 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:02 pm Posts: 10956 Location: Burbank, CA, USA	One of the real issues I have seen is the misunderstanding made by using the word 'Assault" to mean anything other then heavy weapons fire. I think most people think of the word assault to mean "hand-to-hand" and thus have a hard time thinking of a Titan being killed in an Assault. For me, I have come to understand is EpicAs term for a complete WH40K battle. The other issue is the idea that if something is taken out of the game it is "totally destroyed". Another mental image that is not true. Formations that are destroyed are just out for the "game" not complete elimination. I could understand that most people would say a Warlord should not be taken out by a marine with a bolter. Except what if that marine got into the command center with that bolter? How long would that Warlord keep going then? I do not have such a big issue the Titan being open to damage in a battle if it allowed formations to get too close. Sort of like the conversation we had a while ago where the Titan was compared to a ?Land Battleship? type role. But in the spirit of open disclosure I disliked and stopped playing Battletech because I have never bought into the idea of the large walking target, um I mean, Robot being king of any battlefield. So maybe my opinion is tainted by this overall preference.   dafrca _________________ "Every Man is a But Spark in the Darkness"               - Cities of Death, page 59 Come fight me, if you dare...... http://dd-janks.mybrute.com
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primarch

Post subject: Marine predators and other line tanks Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 1:28 am

Brood Brother Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am Posts: 27069 Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA

Hi! But in the spirit of open disclosure I disliked and stopped playing Battletech because I have never bought into the idea of the large walking target, um I mean, Robot being king of any battlefield. So maybe my opinion is tainted by this overall preference. ? This is definitely an important consideration and how you view the role of such units will dictate your preference. Regarding the marine and his bolter in the cockpit, true if he gets in there they are toast, but what is the REASONABLE probability of that happening under regular battlefield conditions? In my view it is so low as to be negligible and thus not represented in the games design. Also, I know assault may also mean a short range firefight or somesuch, but how does that bolster the arguement of letting infantry take on a titan? Its sheer firepower advantage makes such a close firepower a losing probability for infantry who have no armor or shields to protect them (not to mention the electro-hull defense) from the titans onslaughts. Again the probability is so low the game design should not admit possibility for its success. If infantry wants to take on a titan it should be in good cover with a crapload of heavy weapons and hope it gets nailed before it closes range. It should be an act of desperation, not a valid tactical choice. My dollar fifty. Primarch _________________ Primarch The Primarchload Magnetized Titans Tutorial Net Epic Gold Heresy Rules

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dafrca

Post subject: Marine predators and other line tanks Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 1:58 am

Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:02 pm Posts: 10956 Location: Burbank, CA, USA

Quote (primarch @ 15 2003 Aug.,17:28) Hi! But in the spirit of open disclosure I disliked and stopped playing Battletech because I have never bought into the idea of the large walking target, um I mean, Robot being king of any battlefield. So maybe my opinion is tainted by this overall preference. ? This is definitely an important consideration and how you view the role of such units will dictate your preference. I agree, that is why I shared this with you all. I knew it was tainting my view of all "super large robotic things". Titan or Mech, I think the role should be support not "King of the Battlefield". Quote (primarch @ 15 2003 Aug.,17:28) Regarding the marine and his bolter in the cockpit, true if he gets in there they are toast, but what is the REASONABLE probability of that happening under regular battlefield conditions? In my view it is so low as to be negligible and thus not represented in the games design. Are you sure? Do they have to list all the reasons a Titan might have fallen or just make it possible that Marines could take down a Titan? Quote (primarch @ 15 2003 Aug.,17:28) Also, I know assault may also mean a short range firefight or somesuch, but how does that bolster the arguement of letting infantry take on a titan? Its sheer firepower advantage makes such a close firepower a losing probability for infantry who have no armor or shields to protect them (not to mention the electro-hull defense) from the titans onslaughts. Again the probability is so low the game design should not admit possibility for its success. If infantry wants to take on a titan it should be in good cover with a crapload of heavy weapons and hope it gets nailed before it closes range. It should be an act of desperation, not a valid tactical choice. Just as the chance of a Marine getting into the cockpit is slim so is the chance of an infantry only formation taking down an undamaged titan. Without spending a lot of time to work out the math, I would just say it is very slim. What I do not agree with is the idea it should be impossible. Titans should not be invulnerable. In order for those bugs to have taken down the two scout titans it took close to twenty models, many of which died in the fight, and quite a few MW weapons as well. Based on the numbers I do not see my basic IG formation doing much Titan killing, thus I do not think of it as a valid tactical choice. However, if a Titan that is almost gone crosses their path, they might try it. It should be possible just not the normal way to kill a Titan. On that I think we agree. dafrca _________________ "Every Man is a But Spark in the Darkness"               - Cities of Death, page 59 Come fight me, if you dare...... http://dd-janks.mybrute.com

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primarch	Post subject: Marine predators and other line tanks Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 2:13 am
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am Posts: 27069 Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA	Hi! But I didn't say its "impossible", just very low probability and that the game mechanics should not try to simulate things of such low probability since, especially in d6 systems, the actual chance of it happening will be far above the real chance of occurance of that event. If the game mechanic can be manipulated to permit such unlikely events and truely keep them as rare, then cool. But thats usually not the case. Its that in the usual manner GW constructs its game a 1 in 6 chance is too good, even a 1 in 36 is too good because the player can "capitalize" on the probability at low cost to himself and try it more times than it should with reasonable expectations of success. From a game perspective I think it would be great for a group of desperate group of grunts to take on the titan and beyond all hope overcome it, but only if the game mechanic makes it real, real hard. The feeling of accomplishment would be awesome. Otherwise the player can just figure out the probability and play it to his advantage, not very heroic or entertaining after a while. Mind you, this particular topic is a shortcoming I have seen with all epic versions except, perhaps, first edition AT, it has been adressed to varying degrees of success in net epic too, but the d6 system makes it real hard to make difficult things, from a probability point of view, truely hard. Primarch _________________ Primarch The Primarchload Magnetized Titans Tutorial Net Epic Gold Heresy Rules
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Legion 4	Post subject: Marine predators and other line tanks Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 5:37 am
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm Posts: 36949 Location: Ohio - USA	Well, I've said this before, and Primarch and I agree again, a Titan is a big Target ! Based on my experience, Titans should blast each other like two battleships, until one crashes. The remaining Titan will have suffered large amounts of damage and can now be taken out by lighter forces ... "Burn Baby Burn"  Oh, and the playtester who came up with the Cavemen vs. Jet anology - ! Let's look at an Afghan with a Stinger AA weapon ... the USSR lost hundreds of choppers in this exchange.  SM/IG etc. are not carrying spears, they have high-tech weapons systems available to them.  This is the kind of thing I have mentioned before ... don't some of these guys making comments like this have access to the world news, a library or the History Channel ?     _________________ Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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primarch	Post subject: Marine predators and other line tanks Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 1:25 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am Posts: 27069 Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA	Hi! Weapons play a big part in strategy and tactics at any level of operation, thats why I dont like the argument of abstracting weapons in games because the operational level it represent should somehow abstract them. The Mujahadin was able to inflict such horrendous helicopter casualties BECASUE they had stingers provided by the US. Take those stingers away and would history been the same? Not likely. When the Russians made their counter offfensive to encircle Stalingrad they purposely targeted the Rumanian units at the flanks because they had weak anti-tank weapons (or none at all), if they did would the result have been the same? likely not. There is a chance to almost anything in war, look at Midway, if not for happenstance the US should have lost. That sort of scenario is very difficult to represent in a game becasue its a fluke, something with mighty slim chances of happening. If the game assigns a possibility that is easier to obtain then flukes become reliable tactics. I like improbable things to happen, it spices up the game, but they should happen sparingly. Primarch _________________ Primarch The Primarchload Magnetized Titans Tutorial Net Epic Gold Heresy Rules
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