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NDC Step 1 vote results are in!

 Post subject: Re: NDC Step 1 vote results are in!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:24 pm 
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Oh my, my Bad Moonz are going to love those Stompa changes.

Hope to get back to playing EPIC more regularly.

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 Post subject: Re: NDC Step 1 vote results are in!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:21 pm 
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Get back on your scenarios too! [Cracks whip] :)

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 Post subject: Re: NDC Step 1 vote results are in!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:54 pm 
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A slight correction: Theres seems to have occured a misunderstanding when voting for the different Hellblade options. One was mistaken for the other so We will Add it to the list also.

The suggestion goes:

Increase range on Hellblades to 30cm from current 15cm and decrease AA to 6+ from current 5+.

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 Post subject: Re: NDC Step 1 vote results are in!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:15 pm 
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Ok, replying as the Harlequin Sub-AC and very long time Eldar player.

Eldar:

Change the rules for portals so that formations that enter or exit the board thru a broken Storm Serpent gets 1BM.
Apparently presented by Necron AC, given the wording. While I totally understand the appeal of a uniform rule across EA, the races play completely differently. This would have a huge effect on the Eldar who have very few brittle units that are more likely to be broken, harder to rally and almost impossible to avoid, while it should have much less effect on the Necrns who have many more much tougher portal units, allowing the formations to avoid using the affected portal which is more likely to recover as well.
Finally, you should note that the only list that can return through a webgate are the unapproved Harlequins, who already have a significant number of weaknesses built into the list to offset things like their ‘mastery of the webway’ (note to self - include ignore any BM for using the webgate). So with respect, I don’t think this is appropriate for the Eldar.

Void Spinner cost up 25 points.
I am ambivalent about this. VS spam does not seem to be greatly affected in the UK by this, they are never fielded in pairs for obvious reasons. Not sure how one ‘tests’ it either other than by building lists and explaining how one was constrained by the loss of 25 points.

Add rule that Farseers cannot summon avatar when broken.
Seems possibly ok. This one should be tested for validity and impact


Eldar Exarchs loose their extra attacks (only have Inspiring).
Not sure where this came from. Never heard anything like it on the forums. Seems a little excessive to me, test away.

Change Cobra stats to EpicUK verision.
Lower Cobra to 225 points from current 250 points.

Cobra has always been considered problematic. Personally, I quite liked the original very niche ‘Titan-killer’. Sure you can test this, but I’m with PFE on this, I would probably prefer trying extending the range on the existing stats.

Biel-Tan Eldar: Add Mechanized Aspect Warrior Warhost, any six of the transportable aspects and 3 wave serpents, 0-1 exarch upgrade, 375 points
Really unconvinced about this, I thought the BT were the most numerous Craft world, hence had the largest formations. Making them cheaper and more mobile allows the BT access to more formations, and basically undoes the effect of the Void Spinner change above. Test it by all means, the results could be interesting.

Cheers Ginger


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 Post subject: Re: NDC Step 1 vote results are in!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:50 pm 
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I hadn't heard of the NDC before this thread and don't know what to think of the idea at this stage. A good 60-75% or so of these changes proposed seem sensible and welcome but there's some really crazy bad ideas mixed in too.

A 120cm (when indirect) disrupt, ignore cover 3BP baggage for 200 points in the DK list? Wow! I have regularly taken Medusas at their current 275 points and 250 could be ok but no cheaper than that please.

50 points for a Land Raider upgrade seems concerningly cheap... 75 per Land Raider or 125 each pair could be a better compromise?

The Supa Stompa and Stompa formation are regarded as fine as is aren't they? Thought it was just the pure regular Stompa formation that isn't much good? Adding a free Stompa to an already good formation seems uneeded (I tried and failed to kill one of these formations as BTS with my titan legion at the tournament last weekend). Dropping the Stompa cost 25 and upping the Supa-Stompa 25 keeps the most commonly taken formation the same cost while specifically helping the underperforming bits. +50 for a Stompa worth testing too.

Yey for 175 Baneblades? Is this intended to be as well as the 2 shot proposal or instead?

I hope the Biel-tan 6 aspects thing doesn't go through! Biel-tan have a lot more Aspects than other craftworlds hence the larger formation. It's their differentiating thing not a bug.

Please double the Manta's TK(D3) shots OR drop points 75. Both at once seems way too good/far!


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 Post subject: Re: NDC Step 1 vote results are in!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:51 pm 
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Ginger wrote:
Eldar Exarchs loose their extra attacks (only have Inspiring).
Not sure where this came from. Never heard anything like it on the forums. Seems a little excessive to me, test away.


viewtopic.php?p=595547#p595547

Quote:
Biel-Tan Eldar: Add Mechanized Aspect Warrior Warhost, any six of the transportable aspects and 3 wave serpents, 0-1 exarch upgrade, 375 points
Really unconvinced about this, I thought the BT were the most numerous Craft world, hence had the largest formations. Making them cheaper and more mobile allows the BT access to more formations, and basically undoes the effect of the Void Spinner change above. Test it by all means, the results could be interesting.


My intention with the suggestion is to make a mechanized warhost a more viable option, rather than delivering them via webway or Vampire. It's not meant to replace the 8 strong formation, it's in addition to it.

Ginger wrote:
The Supa Stompa and Stompa formation are regarded as fine as is aren't they? Thought it was just the pure regular Stompa formation that isn't much good? Adding a free Stompa to an already good formation seems uneeded (I tried and failed to kill one of these formations as BTS with my titan legion at the tournament last weekend). Dropping the Stompa cost 25 and upping the Supa-Stompa 25 keeps the most commonly taken formation the same cost while specifically helping the underperforming bits. +50 for a Stompa worth testing too.


I suggested the 300 point Supa, it didn't pass.

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Yey for 175 Baneblades? Is this intended to be as well as the 2 shot proposal or instead?


Instead of.

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 Post subject: Re: NDC Step 1 vote results are in!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:47 pm 
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Ahh thanks Dave. I think the question becomes, compared with other leaders all of which get an extra attack (many with MW) and leader for 50 points, why not drop the extra attack off these other characters as well? Leader is worth 25 points, so there is a straight comparison, no? :D
(Only joking)

I understand your point, that the various Eldar character weapons are confusing and ideally need standardising. The E-UK approach and wording works well and I hope can be adopted by th ERC for the wider NetEA community.

Thanks for clarifying your thoughts on the 6x strong mechanised aspect formation. Let’s test it by all means especially spamming it to see the effect of several of these supported by other more usual formations. One question, are these Warhosts or Supports?

And I didn’t query the other bits, you can blame Glyng LoL ;)


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 Post subject: Re: NDC Step 1 vote results are in!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:06 pm 
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Interestingly enough the semi-mechanised Aspects have proven quite a popular choice with Biel Tan here in the UK over the last few years and have seen a reasonable amount of success as well. Having some of the aspects as shining spears or swooping hawks avoids movement being compromised but helps keep the formation to a reasonable cost. Both have advantages, especially the hawks given they add some scout to the unit to allow for extra objective grabbing


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 Post subject: Re: NDC Step 1 vote results are in!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:15 pm 
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GlynG wrote:
The Supa Stompa and Stompa formation are regarded as fine as is aren't they? Thought it was just the pure regular Stompa formation that isn't much good? Adding a free Stompa to an already good formation seems uneeded (I tried and failed to kill one of these formations as BTS with my titan legion at the tournament last weekend). Dropping the Stompa cost 25 and upping the Supa-Stompa 25 keeps the most commonly taken formation the same cost while specifically helping the underperforming bits. +50 for a Stompa worth testing too.


This is such a no-brainer. The fact that the Stompa change wasn't automatically coupled with a supa-stompa change is mind-boggling. That's always settled on like page 1 of any discussion of Stompas in the Ork section of the forums.

GlynG wrote:
Yey for 175 Baneblades? Is this intended to be as well as the 2 shot proposal or instead?


This here is the canary in the coal mine for me. I was involved in the 18 page long Baneblade thread. I didn't like the 2 shot proposal at first but after some extensive mathhammering against other ideas it was the only one that made sense. It's the simplest way to make Baneblades not look like dog doo compared to Leman Russes without resorting to insane point drops or stepping on the toes of other variants. Eventually consensus was reached and playtesting was started.

I am not saying the 2 shot is the best or only solution, but I still have my spreadsheet. I could show that a 25 point drop does virtually nothing to improve the abysmal point for point damage output compared to Russes (whether in a Company or a Platoon). The fact that a 25 point drop made the cut instead of the original proposed change indicates to me that the NDC is 30 people who are voting based on gut checks rather than extensive debate.

No offense to the members of the NDC. No matter how experienced they all are as players, they can't possibly be intimately familiar with ~50 different proposed rule changes, vote on them and play test them all within a few months.

I don't know enough about every unit to spot the other flubs like this in the proposed changes, but I bet there are knowledgeable people who could spot at least one nonsensical change for each army list and support their case.

I think this is a fundamental problem with this system. I think you've bitten off more than you can chew.


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 Post subject: Re: NDC Step 1 vote results are in!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:31 pm 
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Ok.

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 Post subject: Re: NDC Step 1 vote results are in!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:34 pm 
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"I was involved in the 18 page long Baneblade thread."

That's your problem right there, the very dead parrot in the NetEA sketch. 18 pages of discussion that ended up doing what exactly? If you ask me, having a broad representation from the entire world is the only way to drive this thing forward and make some much needed changes.

Had we done something like this 10 years ago we would be in much better shape today. But better late than never.

This experiment with voting is an experiment, and the nature of the beast is that everyone can't and won't end up agreeing with 100% of the result. I sure don't, and I'm a voting member that put in a bunch of proposals! I have no clue what we're going to end up with. But if we've bitten off more than we can chew, at least there's chewing going on.

Now we're in the playtest period, so instead of people sniping from the sidelines we could use some testing of the proposals before the next vote.

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 Post subject: Re: NDC Step 1 vote results are in!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:46 pm 
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RichardL wrote:
Interestingly enough the semi-mechanised Aspects have proven quite a popular choice with Biel Tan here in the UK over the last few years and have seen a reasonable amount of success as well. Having some of the aspects as shining spears or swooping hawks avoids movement being compromised but helps keep the formation to a reasonable cost. Both have advantages, especially the hawks given they add some scout to the unit to allow for extra objective grabbing
Richard, I think that should read all E-UK Eldar lists except Biel Tann.
LoL :D


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 Post subject: Re: NDC Step 1 vote results are in!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:01 pm 
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Ginger, just look at all the Biel-Tan eldar lists Kev Bott has run in recent years

SEMI-mechanised.... as in 2x dire avenger, 2x fire dragon, 4x swooping hawk, 2x wave serpent

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 Post subject: Re: NDC Step 1 vote results are in!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:08 pm 
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Mrdiealot wrote:
"I was involved in the 18 page long Baneblade thread."

That's your problem right there, the very dead parrot in the NetEA sketch. 18 pages of discussion that ended up doing what exactly? If you ask me, having a broad representation from the entire world is the only way to drive this thing forward and make some much needed changes.

Had we done something like this 10 years ago we would be in much better shape today. But better late than never.

This experiment with voting is an experiment, and the nature of the beast is that everyone can't and won't end up agreeing with 100% of the result. I sure don't, and I'm a voting member that put in a bunch of proposals! I have no clue what we're going to end up with. But if we've bitten off more than we can chew, at least there's chewing going on.

Now we're in the playtest period, so instead of people sniping from the sidelines we could use some testing of the proposals before the next vote.


Consider these posts my initial contribution to testing then - you have some ideas that never should have gotten out of committee, and we don't need to waste time on testing to point them out. I think you're so concerned with chewing you haven't considered what you're putting in your mouth.

I'll update the Baneblade thread with charts for the NDC's proposed changes. The thread is here for those who are interested.


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 Post subject: Re: NDC Step 1 vote results are in!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:22 pm 
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Mrdiealot wrote:
18 pages of discussion that ended up doing what exactly?

It ended in the AC reviewing the debate and then giving the playtest proposal of two shot cannon and then play tests of that have occurred, of which GrimDarkBits has contributed. You're obviously not paying attention and a snide tone isn't winning you support. That being said, the medium also isn't conductive to that admittedly so perhaps it's a case of that. Talking on the internet is to clear communication what AIDS is to humans.

But that being said, GrimDarkBits, there's 0 requirement for anyone testing and batrepping to only do things the AC has suggested. In example, I myself recently playtested Raven Guard with Storm Talons and some other thematic tweaks (personal opinion) that the AC hasn't really been all that warm to. I put my money where my proverbial mouth was. That too is totally ok as well. Nothing is stopping you from continuing tests of the 2 shot trial for data.

The NDC can test and batrep ANYTHING they want. At best they find some things out and they work an are adopted (or we hve data that shows why they don't actually work). At worst the AC says "no" and that's that.

Seriously you two really need to knock it off.
:tut

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