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FAN LIST- Tau Sa'Cea Cityfight Tio'Ve

 Post subject: FAN LIST- Tau Sa'Cea Cityfight Tio'Ve
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:43 pm 
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First off, an apology- I had a look around for somewhere suitable to put this and putting it in the NetEA development forum seemed like the wrong place, as it's just a quick conglomeration of ideas.

Anyways, I was thinking about a list which includes some of the Tau units which don't feature in any lists, particularly Breacher Teams, XV9 and Ghostkeel and threw together this list. I understand the reluctance to make normal Tau FF kings, but the Breacher Teams and XV9 are fluffed to be basically that, hence the direction of this list.

Not sure about the Sa'Cea sept, but its the next biggest Fire Warrior world so it made sense after Vior'la. Fluffing it as a cityfighting force made sense to me- I stripped out a lot of the long ranged AT guns (Railheads, Broadsides) in exchange for FF aptitude and short ranged macro (although the Fusion Collider on the Ghostkeel is pretty silly I readily admit). The Stormsurge and Supremacy Armour are taken directly from the Vior'la list, as those are Tau siege pieces, as much as the Tau have a concept of sieges!

It also includes some other Tau variants which have been around for a while in 40k- Sniper Drones, Missile Broadsides, XV25 with Fusion Blasters and some of the FW XV8 variants.

Comments and criticisms welcome and encouraged, it may be absolute nonsense for all I know! :P

Edit- Already got a bunch of thoughts of my own about what to change-
• One Breacher Cadre as a compulsory Core Formation (to accompany the below change)
• Kroot as a Core Formation (Kroot are very common in Tau urban warfare)
• Gun Drones upgrade 2 units for 25 or 4 for 50 (mostly fluffy as I reckon Gun Drones would be very useful in urban combat)
• Gun Drones as a formation- 8 units for 150 (for the same reasons as above, and Gun Drone squads have always been a thing in 40k. They also provide a cheaper formation option)
• Ghostkeel gain teleport (in keeping with their stealthy nature)
• Ghostkeel lose Deflector Shield but always count as being in cover (ditto)
• Ghostkeel formation size 2-3 not 3-4 (mostly to balance if they do get teleport)
• Ghostkeel always bonded (fluffy)
• Revise XV9 FF- remove EA or MW (a friend has already commented that XV9's "look like Terminators on speed")


Attachments:
Sa'Cea Cityfight Tio'Ve v.0.pdf [163.53 KiB]
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Last edited by Resa F on Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: FAN LIST- Sa'Cea Cityfight Tio'Ve
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:50 am 
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Min one breacher sounds good. And seeing more kroot would be great.

Yeah, dropping the EA on the Hazards would help. Is there a justification for making them 4+ save? Then for points i would cross ref them with Ravenwing land speeders.

Id also drop the ghost keel save to a 4+ to start with.

Its usually best to under power an army to start and then build them up.



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 Post subject: Re: FAN LIST- Sa'Cea Cityfight Tio'Ve
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:16 pm 
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Blip wrote:
Min one breacher sounds good. And seeing more kroot would be great.

Yeah, dropping the EA on the Hazards would help. Is there a justification for making them 4+ save? Then for points i would cross ref them with Ravenwing land speeders.

Id also drop the ghost keel save to a 4+ to start with.

Its usually best to under power an army to start and then build them up.


XV9s have a 3+, same as the XV8s as they're very similar; XV8s were also my main reference point for costing XV9s, as they're essentially XV8s with FF replacing buckets of ranged weapons, and without a character.

Yeah, balance is hard :P I always find myself thinking "This seems reasonable" and everybody else going "This is OP as hell!"

Anyways, some tweaks here after thinking about it for a few days- this is the version you'll be playing against Tuesday Blip, all being well.

CHANGE LOG
• Fusion Cascade on XV9 loses EA+1
• Ghostkeels lose Deflector Shield, gain Stealth Fields (always in cover) and Teleport
• Breacher Cadre becomes 1+
• Kroot Kindred becomes core choice
• XV9s can chose Bonded upgrade (simple omission from the first version)
• Ghostkeel formation down to 2x Ghostkeel with Bonded from 3x Ghostkeel, down to 250 points from 300
• Ghostkeel upgrade increased to 100 points from 75 (3 XV95 therefore costing the same as 3 XV104- I feel like they're pretty comparable)
• Option for 4x Gun Drones for 50 points added
• Removed FF Macro from Shas’Vre character, added Coordinated Fire


Attachments:
Sa'Cea Sept v.0.1.pdf [151.27 KiB]
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Last edited by Resa F on Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: FAN LIST- Tau Sa'Cea Cityfight Tio'Ve
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:34 pm 
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Sure you want to have a formation with 9 stands of scouts as core? That can be prett abused i think.

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 Post subject: Re: FAN LIST- Tau Sa'Cea Cityfight Tio'Ve
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:58 pm 
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mordoten wrote:
Sure you want to have a formation with 9 stands of scouts as core? That can be prett abused i think.


Thats a good point.

I guess you could have 2 forms of kroot - a scout formation and an assault formation...?


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 Post subject: Re: FAN LIST- Tau Sa'Cea Cityfight Tio'Ve
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:23 pm 
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Hmm, I hadn't considered that. Even just one Kroot Kindred can put ZoC over a huge amount of the board from experience. Whilst the normal Tau list is flexible enough with support formations to allow Kroot, I guess that Recon Skimmers for the same points grab most peoples attention. Hopefully the 1+ requirement on Breacher Cadres stops the silliness somewhat, but probably not enough.
Simply ditching Scout on the Kroot Kindred with the same points could work, as the Master Shaper in this list gets a MW CC attack which was previously free. It's not quite equivalent exchange, but it's good enough.
A Kroot Headhunter formation of 6 stands with Scout, a 6+ save and CC3+ as a support choice for 200 points might work? Headhunters were in the 40k chapter approved Kroot Codex as an Elite choice with the ability to spit poision at very close range.

Also, some minor tweaks to the list in my second post- added walker to the Ghostkeel, Stormsurge and Tau'nar (which they always should have had) and added the crit effect on the Tau'nar. The Missile Broadsides lost the choice to take Smart Missiles after I realised I was being dumb, because AP4+ is strictly better than AP5+ with Ignore Cover :P

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 Post subject: Re: FAN LIST- Tau Sa'Cea Cityfight Tio'Ve
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:26 am 
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Really like the variant suits for the Shas'o upgrade. Fluffy and fun and one only so never over powered.

Nice to see some variant Battle Suits, and some of those look fun. The twin Burst Cannons AP5+ on the XV9s seem a little underpowered compared the AP4+, Disrupt on the Silenced Burst Cannons on the Stealth Suits? Perhaps you were comparing them to the Burst Cannons on the armour (Devilfish etc) where the fire effect of only one cannon mount is leading to that value, compared to five infantry (three suits) in one Suit unit/stand?

For me there is still an elephant in the room with regard to Tau Suits, especially the XV8 Crisis Suits.

Even a cursory glance at the EpicUK lists makes it clear that a Crisis Cadre is a poor choice, essentially only taken for access to a Shas'o Supreme Commander re-roll. The only crisis that Crisis Suits seem to generate is for themselves. Their respectable fire power - on paper - turns out to require such close range that they get pummelled at close range. The small size of the formations (4 units for 250 points) means they are easily broken and then BM to death. Any MW shooting just accelerates the process since their heavier armour is a basic 3+ with only an Invulnerable Save rather than the rather more ubiquitous Reinforce Armour of many other armies heavy infantry. Perhaps the same armour configuration sits behind the low frequency of Marine Dreadnoughts. With a Supreme Commander in the formation the value of wiping it out goes up as well. So you take it for the re-roll and then hide the formation that is supposed to get in there and deal with a crisis.

The other thing about the Crisis Suit formation is that is easily best at shooting Infantry (or Light Vehicles) especially at engagement range over 15 cm in a army that has several arguably more points efficient formations for shooting at Infantry. And there are plenty of better anti-tank shooting formations. I think we ought to give the XV8 Crisis Suits a AT6+ (or AT5+) on their Plasma rifles, in addition to the AP4+. Almost every other unit armed with Plasma weaponry has AT5+ on the basic hand held gear.

You can't use the higher armour on the XV8s as front shields for an engagement because a small formation with FF5+is pants. Could address this somewhat by allowing upgrades for regular Fire Warrior formations. That is a strong points of your list with several of the other suit variants. What about allowing a more variable addition of suits to basic Breacher teams, say 1-3 for 50 points each.

We manage to get a Shas'el added to the basic formation for the 250 points which was a minor boost.

Ooops, that turned into a rant about XV8s which I realise was a common accepted data point for your development. Sorry.

Did also wonder whether your splitting Sniper Drone teams - one controller, 3 or so drones - into two separate units is below the scale of Epic. A regulation infantry stand has 3 - 7 figures, so I modelled my Sniper Drones with one controller and two/four drones. To simplify things just give your sniper drones markerlights, model with a controller on the stand, and assume they move as regular drones. OR give them teleport and drop the Tau Jet Packs to reflect their stealhy nature. Simplifying the formation would be my desire.

Could somebody move this thread to the NetEA Tau thread - if that is appropriate?


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 Post subject: Re: FAN LIST- Tau Sa'Cea Cityfight Tio'Ve
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:00 pm 
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Nice work on the list so far. Looks like it offers some interesting possibilities.

Thought I'd weigh in on the Ghostkeels since there was some discussion on them in the Vior'la list as well. The general discussion was shifting away from the 2DC since they're closer to a dreadnought in size, and subbing in 4+ reinforced to compensate.

There was also discussion on giving the larger suits different load out options. At the risk of derailing the actual focus of this thread, it might be more productive to set up some specific threads to discuss stat lines for some of the newer suits.

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 Post subject: Re: FAN LIST- Tau Sa'Cea Cityfight Tio'Ve
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:18 pm 
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@Andrew_NZ
Cheers! It's a small change but gives some flavour I feel.

With the XV9s, AP5+ was derived from Hammerheads yeah, and also due to erring on the side of caution power-wise. I feel you with XV8s though; the most use I've gotten from them is dropping them out of Orca, where you can get them to 15cm range without having to tank shots on the way in. Vior'la having the option of SupCom in Fire Warriors helps as you're not always looking at a BtS containing your SupCom as your XV8 cadre. Hopefully the XV9s give the option of an engagement focused suit.

Sniper Drone teams got split up as I imagined that in larger groups all the drone controllers would stick together, and the drones would go flying off- the Firesight Marksman team is supposed to represent several drone controllers. Means that there's nothing weird about the entire team having jet packs when there's a footslogging controller, and having a formation where every unit has a markerlight feels a little over the top.

@gunslinger007
Thanks, hopefully it's something a little different.
With Ghostkeels, in 8th Dreadnoughts have 8 wounds, Riptides 14 and Ghostkeels 10, so I suppose that makes sense. If they were to go down to AV, 4+ RA, how would you cost them? 225 for a unit of 3?


Thanks for your comments guys. I really need to get around to playtesting the list, that's when all the issues will get shaken out!

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 Post subject: Re: FAN LIST- Tau Sa'Cea Cityfight Tio'Ve
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:18 pm 
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Resa F wrote:
With Ghostkeels, in 8th Dreadnoughts have 8 wounds, Riptides 14 and Ghostkeels 10, so I suppose that makes sense. If they were to go down to AV, 4+ RA, how would you cost them? 225 for a unit of 3?


I'd think some of this depend on their attacks, but in my wish list I'd like to see the formation with at least 4 units, at 250 points or less. From experience, teleporting formations with 3 units or less are tricky to bring to bear. If they take a BM from teleporting, it doesn't take much more to break them. Even if they don't, it only takes losing one unit to break them. The RA armor should mitigate that risk a bit.

Alternatively, you could take a direction of a base formation of 3, but the ability to add more? 175pts for three, 75 pts for each additional (1-3)?

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 Post subject: Re: FAN LIST- Tau Sa'Cea Cityfight Tio'Ve
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:14 pm 
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Tactics that "work" using Crisis Suits are an elusive goal for me.

Landing a regular Orca within 30 cm, 15 cm disembark with Jet Packs, is sometimes fraught.
In this case you lose out on the Init +1, that you are paying for, and cannot Tau Jump Pack after shooting.

I have enjoyed putting the Crisis Suits in an aggressively handled Manta (ie not BTS).
Move, Shoot (markerlights from Manta), Tau Jet Pack back into the Manta.
Get out of the Manta when it breaks and do something interesting the next turn.
It is a pretty expensive package but sometimes a killing blow.

Using more and bigger formations has felt more enjoyable. But the points ramp up very fast,
so you tend to run out of activations, . . . . Cheaper upgrade expansions might help.

Upgrades of crisis units to other formations might be a good useful trail to make.


Sniper Drones.
My take on sniper drones was to have one team as a single unit, scout and markerlight,
but since sniper drones are hiding and stealth movers with a big gun and stabilising fins I'd not given them Tau Jump Packs. In the fluff, "a much modified variant of the Tau Jetpack". Anyway I can see how your take is equally fluffy.


Modelling
Deciding how to identify which stand is which on the table top - for the different suits and dispersed scout formations - is a concern for me in trialing you list. Probably largely because I have already constructed the figures and unit stands without that differentiation in mind. But cool.


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 Post subject: Re: FAN LIST- Tau Sa'Cea Cityfight Tio'Ve
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:35 pm 
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What were you thinking of using as models (proxies) for the different suits?

XV9 (as compared to XV8)
XV25 with Shas'vre (as compared to XV15/25)
Ghostkeel?
Other big suits?
With different loadouts?


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