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If you could change the RULES of E:a...

 Post subject: Re: If you could change the RULES of E:a...
PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:37 pm 
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I'm in the camp for finding a way to make CC more viable and that the counter charging rules feel very unintuitive and gamey. When combined with clipping assaults it kinda feels like you need to play the rules rather than the game.

I destroyed a Tau player in one of my first games in a series of clipping FF, intermingled, counter charge shenanigans assaults that he clearly wasn't prepared for. It was definitely a feel bad moment for both of us.


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 Post subject: Re: If you could change the RULES of E:a...
PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:39 pm 
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I'd prefer a little more granularity:

Fearless/Non-fearless is too course, add a "training save". I.e. you're formation broken and it took a BM. The closest unit has to roll its initiative or better with a -2 modifier (for being broken, like the rally mod) to stay on the board.

MW/regular hits it too course, add a "save modifier". It would work like sniper (-1 to armor saves) but could be a number between 1 and 5. E.g. Penetration (3) hits would save at a -3 modifier. It would make hit allocation a little more difficult: allocate and save regulars, allocate and save Pen (1) hits, allocate and save Pen (2) hits, etc. Same goes for Ignore Cover, give it a "cover pen" value.

I'm not fond of the CC/FF abstractions. Get rid of them and use the weapon values. A leman russ in firefight has a 4/4, 2 5/- and a -/5 attack. Pool your AP and AT attacks separately, assign them like shooting and work out the assault that way. This would mean coming up with a close combat attack for each unit and AP/AT values for small arms with a range of (15cm).

Introduce "held fire". My formation doubles but I don't have a target yet because you forced me to go first. You double up later in the turn, after your activation is complete I can use my held fire on that formation. Held fire clears at the end of a turn. The would make fighting a fallback action possible in the game.

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I'm in agreement with the aerospace rules.

Definitely disagree that counter-charging towards charger makes more sense or is gamey. They're troops on the ground. If they're told to charge they're going to charge what's in front of them, not what's on the other side of the formation from them. It's a rule that makes you think about your flanks and the placement of your troops, while making you look critically at those of your opponent. Those are good things.

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 Post subject: Re: If you could change the RULES of E:a...
PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:15 pm 
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Agree with most of above, though counter charging toward nearest is, on balance, an interesting facet of the rules imho.

On the CC vs FF. Personally i would drop hackdown hits from FF, meaning CC is the comparatively more deadly and decisive kind of assault thereby giving dedicated CC shock troops real utility.

I'd also like to add the messy ground AA suppression rules to the list of bugbears.



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 Post subject: Re: If you could change the RULES of E:a...
PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:04 pm 
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Quote:
- I don't like the way big WE don't suffer any suppression until BM = DC or any effects of damage
- theres too big a difference between fearless and non fearless.


Agree with the above.
Suggested fix:
- WE and WE formations with blast markers equal to half or more of there DC shoot at -1
- fearless units that are engaged when broken and lose the assault suffer hackdown hits (like non fearless non broken units that loss an assault)


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 Post subject: Re: If you could change the RULES of E:a...
PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:25 pm 
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Blip wrote:
On the CC vs FF. Personally i would drop hackdown hits from FF, meaning CC is the comparatively more deadly and decisive kind of assault thereby giving dedicated CC shock troops real utility.


I really dig that idea or at least 1:1 on CC and 1:2 or something on FF

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 Post subject: Re: If you could change the RULES of E:a...
PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:28 am 
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With the War Engines - a very quick fix would be that FF and CC dice are based on REMAINING DC. Meaning you could wear them down and them mob them with larger formations later. The combo of full DC+ fearless is just too overpowering.

Ironically, in practice the "OP" of big titan rules results in them never being seen. They are costed correctly for their killing power but they are not great at winning the game (and excessive points limit aircraft selection) so they rarely come out. Or if they do they end up ignored or wandering around broken but not damaged...

(Except the Warlock which is just a utter monster because it can move fast enough).

The new 40k (i know, wash my mouth out) has an interesting system of degrading stat-lines with damage (typically an MBT has a set of 3 decreasing stat lines which are used depending on its remaining wounds). Seems to work, and if a game aimed at 10 year olds can handle it i can't see why EA couldn't.

I'd like to see suppression/degradation rules which mean that a Warlord is around 500 points so they start being included in the game again in the same way they were essential to a SM2 game.

@ Jimmy. Thanks. Though I basically just stole it from 3rd Ed! :-)


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 Post subject: Re: If you could change the RULES of E:a...
PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:33 pm 
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Hit allocation.

For me it is counterintuitive: a game of this scale, with this level of abstraction... has a extremely detailed and slow allocation and save system (more detailed than 28mm games like WH40K).

I would make it: just roll to hit, no allocation, roll ALL saves together (if different saves on the unit just two pools of dice), remove casualties from the closest. Done (no templates sniping charater, no waste of time allocating one by one, saving one by one, etc).

And another one: totally remove intermingling, or make it so it needs all anemy formations to be within 15cm and LoS.

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 Post subject: Re: If you could change the RULES of E:a...
PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:58 pm 
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really like the CC vs FF hackdown idea

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 Post subject: Re: If you could change the RULES of E:a...
PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:08 pm 
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In general, EA is a very good set of rules that abstract a lot of detail, allowing people to command troops on a larger battlefield. That said, they do tend to be too coarse in many aspects as others have mentioned. These 'gripes' boil down to many points already covered:-
  • use of different dice, as well as D6 to represent
    • differing troop qualities for activations (so 'poor' troops might use a D6, while crack troops could use a D8 or even D10; all requiring a "1" to activate but dropping a dice level for having BMs)
    • different armour strengths
    • different weapon strengths
    • etc. The point being that this allows better control of the percentages in the game
  • different RA values (or Variable armour as I have termed it in the past)
  • allow medium and larger battle Titans to attack different targets with primary, secondary, and possibly further levels of weaponry
  • revise titan criticals to disable weapons (using other than D6) affecting the vehicle speed, primary, secondary weapons etc
  • review / clarify other rules like 'intermingled', 'elastic ranges', MW 'blast range' and barrage aiming points, screening rules, and especially height rules for shooting over terrain, the rules around units at / over the edge of terrain and and possibly the rules around placing terrain.
  • try to improve the air game rules as a whole especially around escorting, intercepting, and if possible, finding ways to improve the interaction with ground units.
  • consider / review the space rules to allow greater interaction between space units, possibly including a simplified version of BFG

However, although this effectively means a re-write of the whole rule set, much of the core system works just fine; it is the granularity of the rules that are slightly irritating being a bit too 'black and white'.

That said, much of the commentary is very subjective. And above all this is VERY unlikely to occur given GW copyright and IP issues. But by all means, spitball away :D


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 Post subject: Re: If you could change the RULES of E:a...
PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:40 pm 
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you cannot copyright rule mechanics, only the unique expression (see Exodus Wars which is a clean-room port of EA), so actually IP be damned.

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 Post subject: Re: If you could change the RULES of E:a...
PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:48 pm 
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Ginger wrote:
That said, much of the commentary is very subjective. And above all this is VERY unlikely to occur given GW copyright and IP issues. But by all means, spitball away :D


Er...Net epic?

And i don't think it is that subjective. The same major issues keep coming up in this thread and over the few years. Now the solutions might be more subjective... :-)

Exodus wars was a valiant attempt, but changing the dice base to D10s was its big mistake. Even changing to D12s would have made things easier to port, and instantly they would have had a player base.


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 Post subject: Re: If you could change the RULES of E:a...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:26 pm 
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Yup and look at Hail Ceaser and Black Powder which are mechanically decedent from Warmaster!

While I do agree that D12 would be easier math but the D10 math was only about 2 minutes with a pencil on a train for me already so not pertinent to sr,the issues I think (writing it up was different story by the amount of typing is what it is regardless of die). I think D10 was picked because they're pretty common perhaps? Not sure.

Bigger issue was that as all things in the community, it "wasn't EA" and had little to offer NetEpic playrrs so people don't play new things generally. Comfortable with the current iyada yada yada. Also it was not exactly evangelized and pushed well either :)

Now all that being said and back on the topic, I will conceed that D12 would be grand for a new EA as people would mentally just double their mental math generally. So ERC, we're just going to do that, yes? :spin

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 Post subject: Re: If you could change the RULES of E:a...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:47 pm 
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Trouble is, the conversion from 66/50/33/16% (D6) to 70/50/20/10% (for example) (D10) requires interpretation, which would kick up no end of discussion which no one wants to get into. D12 doesn't. The resulting effect of changes to the rules themselves would require enough discussion!

Though, tbh, i don't think changing from D6 gives all that much more anyway unless you change the system more significantly.

Imho, i think the other changes above would be much more beneficial. A living rule book / community edition a la blood bowl, necromunda, 9th age, netepic, etc would be great. As far as i can see the only reason it hasn't happened is there was never really a big enough player base unlike the "mainstream" games.


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 Post subject: Re: If you could change the RULES of E:a...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:59 pm 
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Yeah Epic is a vastly smaller playerbase than something like Blood Bowl which is immense with giant championship touneys which stand on their own (as opposed to being a side show on a larger gaming show) or Necro/Inquisitor which is truly fanatical.

Neil had about the only chance to of done that being a respected enough and fundamental figure in the EA Community. Sadly he decide to not step up and become that rally point and we're in respectful stagnation. Actually considering the imperium fluff that's kinda funny! ;D

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 Post subject: Re: If you could change the RULES of E:a...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:06 pm 
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Yeah, we need a Primarch :-)

So back to the OP - is this where you are heading Mordoten? Or just giving us old farts a place to vent a little :-D


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