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How do you usually play terrain & LoS in your local area?
LoS: Abstract, Infinite Height 33%  33%  [ 27 ]
LoS: Abstract, Highest Element 4%  4%  [ 3 ]
LoS: Abstract, Height Values 2%  2%  [ 2 ]
LoS: Physical 10%  10%  [ 8 ]
LoS: Hybrid 7%  7%  [ 6 ]
LoS: Other 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Density: more than 40% 5%  5%  [ 4 ]
Density: 30-40% 30%  30%  [ 25 ]
Density: 20-30% 9%  9%  [ 7 ]
Density: Less than 20% 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 82

Local Terrain/LoS Rules & Terrain Density - a Survey

 Post subject: Local Terrain/LoS Rules & Terrain Density - a Survey
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:54 pm 
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And a what point does that override the 10cm you can see through terrain? So a Titan stood behind 15cm of woods *can* be very clear cut I guess? But an area of mixed ruins? Surely at some point you must be seeing over a lower part of the area? Don't get me wrong, if I'm playing a casual game I'd be more than happy to just get on with playing but equally I can completely understand where the idea of houseruling a version of "too high to see over" would have come about if you're looking to standardise for the purposes of tournament play.

[edit] I would completely accept "are you nuts, you're playing with toy soldiers - get a f**kkng grip" as a valid answer here by the way...


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 Post subject: Re: Local Terrain/LoS Rules & Terrain Density - a Survey
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:27 pm 
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For the sale of replying to the OP.

Back in cornwall we started playing with quite dense tables - prob 40% - and also the individual pieces of terrain were quite small : 10-15cm sq - as a result of old SM2 collection - often individual card buildings too. We played a fair bit of TLOS.

When a few of us started playing in EUK we adopted their conventions and also often clump 2/3 terrain pieces together to make larger area terrain. Area terrain, ie. all terrain blocks LOS except rivers and roads. We sometimes use the hills = popped up house rule too.

Though none of us are great players, we found the lower terrain density had a dramatic effect on the relative strength of the Eldar vs SL imp guard (though i would still say guard are still a little weaker). In particular it toned down the hit & run rule for the Eldar. Limited effect on Marines either way i would say.


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 Post subject: Local Terrain/LoS Rules & Terrain Density - a Survey
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:49 am 
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Having thought about terrain conventions quite a bit over the years (and the attendant issues they always seem to cause!) I tend towards preferring a mainly abstract system with unit heights and exceptions to cater for seeing through dense (but not opaque) terrain (like the 10 cm deep rule).

There is some reasoning behind the madness: in a game based on representing things with non-literal miniatures, you can't represent the modelled 'reality' of the situation with true line-of-sight (unless your little fellows actually dance around the board!). This also frees you to model units how you like, and removes the 'modelling for advantage' issue that really breaks one's immersion in so many cases. The height system is essentially an exception system that lets you model such different things as titans and infantry. It takes a little longer, but I think these kinds of systems are worth the trouble for me.

I think higher terrain density is generally more interesting for me, presumably because it makes manoeuvre (which is often the most interesting part of these styles of games in the absence of real-time) more challenging. But the trade off is that too much terrain leaves you with no meaningful manoeuvre options. There are also thematic reasons that drive terrain; overall, I think despite it's importance, terrain will always be tricky because it's so complex a thing to represent (as well as people actually need terrain available).

I also wanted to say thank you for the interesting thoughts, @Legion 4! Whilst I may sometimes disagree on exactly what the 'reality' we're modelling should be, I agree with the principles of realism and kissing (erm, K.I.S.S....). I really appreciate your practical and gaming experience in these matters!

PS: From what I gather, I'm quite atypical for an Australian gamer in these matters! :P


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 Post subject: Re: Local Terrain/LoS Rules & Terrain Density - a Survey
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:39 pm 
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IJW Wartrader wrote:
I suspect you've misunderstood the purpose of the thread - it's an information-gathering exercise to find out how people are currently playing terrain and LoS in Epic Armageddon.


Yes, I see now ...

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 Post subject: Re: Local Terrain/LoS Rules & Terrain Density - a Survey
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:58 pm 
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Alf O'Mega wrote:
And a what point does that override the 10cm you can see through terrain? So a Titan stood behind 15cm of woods *can* be very clear cut I guess? But an area of mixed ruins? Surely at some point you must be seeing over a lower part of the area? Don't get me wrong, if I'm playing a casual game I'd be more than happy to just get on with playing but equally I can completely understand where the idea of houseruling a version of "too high to see over" would have come about if you're looking to standardise for the purposes of tournament play.

[edit] I would completely accept "are you nuts, you're playing with toy soldiers - get a f**kkng grip" as a valid answer here by the way...
This is the bit I don't get.

I think it's good we've worked out that in fact Oz do use area terrain as the rulebook says (correct? ruins are always area terrain?), I just don't quite grok how you apply the 10cm rule for area terrain such as ruins if it's possible to see over it/part of it.

If:
a) a titan is stood in ruins (i.e. area terrain)
b) there is more than 10cm of terrain intervening
c) the titan is taller than those ruins
Can you see it? The rulebook says no.
And now move the titan completely behind that same terrain - can you see it now?

In UK land we don't come across this at all (because if it's behind or > 10cm in then it can't be seen, simple as that), so what comes naturally to you probably confuses our pea brains.

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 Post subject: Re: Local Terrain/LoS Rules & Terrain Density - a Survey
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:31 pm 
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Kyrt wrote:
If:
a) a titan is stood in ruins (i.e. area terrain)
b) there is more than 10cm of terrain intervening
c) the titan is taller than those ruins
Can you see it? The rulebook says no.
And now move the titan completely behind that same terrain - can you see it now?

As far as I'm aware, the contention is that the 'Weapons higher up can often see over any terrain that is lower down.' part of the rules says yes, but I'd like to hear from more players about how they play this situation.

To paraphrase, in this reading the LoS rules let you see 10cm into/out/within terrain even if the terrain is physically blocking LoS, but apart from that LoS is worked out based on whether you can draw physical LoS - as described in the Design Concepts Shooting Conventions boxout and bending down to get a model's-eye-view.

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 Post subject: Re: Local Terrain/LoS Rules & Terrain Density - a Survey
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:14 am 
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Think I get what you're saying... i.e. that:
Rulebook wrote:
you can shoot 10cms ‘into’ a terrain feature, but the line of fire is still blocked to units on the other side

Is interpreted to mean:
Rulebook wrote:
you can always shoot 10cms ‘into’ a terrain feature [whether it is physically out of sight or not], even if the line of fire is still blocked to units on the other side


So the 10cm rule is not telling you when something is out of sight, but a situation when it is not. That makes sense. I guess the reason it seems the other way round for me is because it comes directly after this, earlier in the paragraph:

Rulebook wrote:
The line of fire is blocked by terrain features such as buildings, hills, woods, etc.


So it is the feature (the wood) not the individual bits (the trees) that block line of sight. The GT scenario describes features:

[quote="Rulebook"]Terrain features can be of pretty much any type, but should be roughly 15-30cm across. Hills can be up to twice this size./quote]
So a feature is a large item like a wood or area of buildings or a hill. I guess this is why when I am thinking of seeing over a terrain feature, I am masking out the feature in my head as a single block rather than thinking of the gaps through the windows etc. Which does not mean you can't see over it, just not 'through it'.

Interesting. So basically you always have to check TLoS except if it's inside a terrain feature and <10cm from its edge, in which case it's automatically visible.

So how do you play woods? Your infantry can be in some woods, more than 10cm from the edge and still visible right? And almost always will be visible?

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 Post subject: Local Terrain/LoS Rules & Terrain Density - a Survey
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:57 am 
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@Kyrt This problem is why I think a system with different height classes is a good solution (complex though it may be, as noted in the Aussie House Rules thread), since true LoS can be so tricksy (and time-consuming!).

My suggestion is if the terrain is the same size as the miniatures (along with the 10 cm restriction), they'd be partially obscured (so long grass + people = people harder to hit). If the terrain is bigger than the unit, they're out of LoS, and smaller (like a Warhound trying to sneak through a veggie garden), no penalties or cover apply. @Doomkitten's suggestion of just having two classes, 'tall' and 'not-tall', I think would work for most cases without the added complications (so, 'tall' titans could always see over the low area terrain, whereas 'short' Baneblades couldn't see past 10 cm; hills/rooftops, pop-ups etc. could simply make something 'tall').

Anyways, this example just provides a nice description of the problem that I think can be well-solved with height classes, so hopefully it's a useful contribution to the discussion :)


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 Post subject: Re: Local Terrain/LoS Rules & Terrain Density - a Survey
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:18 am 
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Kyrt wrote:
Interesting. So basically you always have to check TLoS except if it's inside a terrain feature and <10cm from its edge, in which case it's automatically visible.

As far as I can tell, yes. It's certainly how I'd read the rule before I'd gone to any tournaments.

Kyrt wrote:
So how do you play woods? Your infantry can be in some woods, more than 10cm from the edge and still visible right? And almost always will be visible?

Hence my example comparing open woodland and dense jungle.

Can anyone that usually uses physical LoS comment? Elsaurio, Mic?

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 Post subject: Re: Local Terrain/LoS Rules & Terrain Density - a Survey
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:33 pm 
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This is pretty standard for northeast US, terrain-wise:

Image

There's one hill off camera to the left that you can't see. We usually count hills as scrub and interpret this from 1.9.2 literally:

Quote:
Buildings, rubble, woods, fortifications and the like don’t block the line of fire to or from units that are in the terrain itself unless the line of fire passes through more than 10cms of the terrain feature


So only those four terrain types (and jungle as a type of "woods") block LoS after 10cm, the other stuff (marsh, river, roads, scrub) don't. Hills block LoS as they lie. We do the same for area terrrain/free standing stuff that block LoS. So being up a hill can give you a shot, but we play pretty heavily with the -1 to hit. So not "infinite height" but high enough to hide most units.

I will add that we don't tend to play with too many big titans, so being up the hill and granting you a shot on tall WEs doesn't come up too often.

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 Post subject: Re: Local Terrain/LoS Rules & Terrain Density - a Survey
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:39 pm 
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Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Local Terrain/LoS Rules & Terrain Density - a Survey
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:36 am 
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Over here in Northern Germany (Hanover area and I guess Hamburg) we usually fill a quarter of the table with terrain "bases". We then distribute those terrain pieces and may add roads or rivers, eg. No-los-blocking stuff. Everything counts as "infinite height" (except skimmer-ing). All terrain blocks los except regular 10cm ruling, no firing through terrain. Hills are excepted, we play those like Dave mentioned. No beeing in cover for hills.
We rarely to never use Bunkers, most of the time its just scrub/rubble, jungle, woods, ruins, buildings.

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 Post subject: Re: Local Terrain/LoS Rules & Terrain Density - a Survey
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:08 pm 
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I would note that varying unit/terrain heights is not a necesarily super complicated thing.

Page 4 in Kings of War covers it for them in 100-150 words?

http://www.manticgames.com/SiteData/Root/File/FREE%20RULES/KoW-rules.pdf

Page 11 covers terrain with Hills adding their Height to the units for determining LoS.

Not saying Epic should do anything to change rules, just that height rules don't have to be that involved.


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