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How do you usually play terrain & LoS in your local area?
LoS: Abstract, Infinite Height 33%  33%  [ 27 ]
LoS: Abstract, Highest Element 4%  4%  [ 3 ]
LoS: Abstract, Height Values 2%  2%  [ 2 ]
LoS: Physical 10%  10%  [ 8 ]
LoS: Hybrid 7%  7%  [ 6 ]
LoS: Other 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Density: more than 40% 5%  5%  [ 4 ]
Density: 30-40% 30%  30%  [ 25 ]
Density: 20-30% 9%  9%  [ 7 ]
Density: Less than 20% 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 82

Local Terrain/LoS Rules & Terrain Density - a Survey

 Post subject: Local Terrain/LoS Rules & Terrain Density - a Survey
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 12:18 pm 
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@flyingthruwater - yeah you're right... just counting them as support craft would not quite work, even if it's only because of the forcing firefights part... which is a shame...


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 Post subject: Re: Local Terrain/LoS Rules & Terrain Density - a Survey
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 12:40 pm 
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And now for some examples. When commenting or replying, I'd like to remind everyone that this is a survey about how people actually play, it's not about playing the rules 'right' or not

LoS EXAMPLE 1 - Gaps Between Fixed Elements

Image

Image

Image

Image

This is about as close as it gets to a universal terrain piece for Epic, a flat base with some ruin walls fixed in place.

For the various subsets of Abstract, it's the other side of area terrain so can't be seen.

For anyone not using abstracted LoS, how would you usually play this? Would the heights of the firer and target make any difference?





LoS EXAMPLE 2 - Gaps Between Fixed Elements, Within Terrain

This the same as example 1, but move the infantry or the Shadowsword forwards until they're in the terrain but more than 10cm apart.

Would this make any difference to how you would play it?





LoS EXAMPLE 3 - Gaps Between Moveable Elements

Image

Image

Image

Another typical piece of terrain, this time a base with moveable items on it.

How would you usually play LoS through the low density and high density sections?

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 Post subject: Re: Local Terrain/LoS Rules & Terrain Density - a Survey
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:25 pm 
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IJW Wartrader wrote:
How would you usually play LoS through the low density and high density sections?


Playing abstract terrain, I'd play all cases as blocked.


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 Post subject: Re: Local Terrain/LoS Rules & Terrain Density - a Survey
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:54 pm 
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As with everything ... we go by 2 guiding principles that are synergistic :

1) Realism
2) K.I.S.S.

Chances are if you were in them military or an outdoorsman, hunter, etc. you may have a pretty good idea how LOS, cover & concealment, camo, terrain masking and blocking, etc. works.

Terrain in the Army is broken down into 3 basic types:
1) Closed
2) Open
3) Mixed

E.g. Closed would be jungle, forests, urban ...
Open - pretty obvious
Mixed - " "

Cover is something solid that could stop all the bullets, shrapnel, fragmentation, secondary missiles[i.e. debris from explosions, etc.], etc.

Concealment limits or breaks LOS, but is not solid. E.g. foliage, crops, hedges, tentage, etc. It won't stop much of anything save for blocks LOS. Which as camo does makes targets harder to hit.

Some maybe for just the "exercise", some might want to go outside and check out how LOS, ranges, etc. actually works. Again, maybe just to clear some of your doubts up.

But again [try] to keep your conclusions guided by :

1) Realism
2) K.I.S.S.

And remember wargaming isn't [or shouldn't be]"rocket science" ... and realism & K.I.S.S. are or should be synergistic. I've been playing wargames since the '60s, including 1 to 1 scale for a over a decade in the '80s. I've been around the block a few times and saw a number of ways to do things on gaming board or table. And in actual on the ground/hands on experience. But as always do what works for you. Not me ... :whistle

Now based on all the pics just posted. All but the last the target should get cover. Also the way SM1 did it and we did it, because it is realistic, Infantry that is not moving[based on orders] gets cover. As Infantrymen usually get prone to make themselves a smaller target, etc. When not moving, or crouched down when moving. And tries to use every fold, bump, log, etc. to give some cover and/or break LOS.

Now in the pics moving or not they get cover, as there is terrain of some type between them and the AFV. And vis versa. In a firefight/combat everybody/thing tries to get something solid between them and incoming fire. And if not, something to break or block LOS.

The last pics LOS is blocked.

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 Post subject: Re: Local Terrain/LoS Rules & Terrain Density - a Survey
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 3:33 pm 
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Also Pop-Up attacks. We base that on what helicopters generally do. A model that can do P/U Atks, basically "hovers" behind cover or concealment, i.e. anything that breaks LOS completely.

- The model(s) making P/U must not be moving[based on orders].
- The model Pops Up & fires ...
- Then one enemy model not moving[based on orders] in range, can return fire[called Snap-Fire in SM1 and Opportunity Fire in most other games]. Firing at one P/U model, and this cycle continues until all models in P/U unit have fired.
- After P/U fires it goes back under cover. Considered LOS is blocked.
- The is no bonus for cover for P/U or return fire*.
* The P/U still gets firing bonus[as it is designed and trained to do P/U atks] ...
* If Infantry unit is not moving or in cover it gets cover bonus. If fired on by P/U ...
* A P/U can still make an attack if not behind cover/ blocked LOS ... of course, it just fires as normally ...

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 Post subject: Re: Local Terrain/LoS Rules & Terrain Density - a Survey
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:21 pm 
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For what it's worth, the survey is specific to how people play terrain and LoS in Epic Armageddon.

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 Post subject: Re: Local Terrain/LoS Rules & Terrain Density - a Survey
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:30 pm 
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Take my posts with as little or as much applicability as one sees fit. But you may get some ideas ... or not ...

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 Post subject: Re: Local Terrain/LoS Rules & Terrain Density - a Survey
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:48 pm 
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I suspect you've misunderstood the purpose of the thread - it's an information-gathering exercise to find out how people are currently playing terrain and LoS in Epic Armageddon.

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 Post subject: Re: Local Terrain/LoS Rules & Terrain Density - a Survey
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:00 pm 
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And following on from Kyrt's post, I agree the term "infinitely high" is misleading. Basically we play that all terrain blocks LoS unless the players / TO stipulate otherwise eg roads, rivers, craters etc. So there would be no firing through any of the terrain pictured above.

If a unit is partially or completely stood on the terrain, then it gains "cover", but suffers DT tests as appropriate. However this can raise an anomaly when applied to hills. A unit placed partially on one side of a hill becomes visible to enemy beyond the other side of the hill; effectively there is no ridge across the hill, it is treated as flat.

As others have said, this approach of treating terrain as blocking LoS does tend to keep the game flowing, important where time is limited in a tournament setting.

Regarding "popping up", we play according to the modified rules that were thrashed out over a decade ago: shooting is permitted if the firer is nearer to the hill than the target. This does raise a slight anomaly, because RAW suggests the target cannot shoot the firer (with OW fire for example) since in this case the 'target' would be closed to terrain. Presumably such return fire is therefore treated as partially in cover and at -1.

I do like the idea of treating shooting from hills as being "popped up", or perhaps using it with various 'levels' of terrain. However, since most terrain is usually separated by ~30 cm, I suspect that this would be used rarely.


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 Post subject: Re: Local Terrain/LoS Rules & Terrain Density - a Survey
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:33 pm 
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quoting from the rulebook 1.9.2:
Quote:
The line of fire is a straight line drawn from
the shooting unit to one unit in the target formation. The
line of fire is blocked by terrain features such as buildings,
hills, woods, etc. Weapons higher up can often see over
any terrain that is lower down. Buildings, rubble, woods,
fortifications and the like don’t block the line of fire to or
from units that are in the terrain itself unless the line of
fire passes through more than 10cms of the terrain
feature (ie, you can shoot 10cms ‘into’ a terrain feature,
but the line of fire is still blocked to units on the other
side). The only units that can block the line of fire are war
engines (see 3.0). Other units do not block the line of fire
for friend or foe.


I've always interpreted this to mean that if you are higher than the terrain you can fire past it and if you can see any part of a unit you can draw line of fire. You can also shoot units that are up to 10cm from the edge of forests and ruined buildings. I think this makes sense with the cover to hit modifiers section and example.

In the examples above, I think it depends.

1. If the entire base is considered the building then there is no LoF. If just the building models on the base are counted, then yes there is LoF with a cover save.

2. No LoF - units are more than 10cm apart and in terrain.

3. No LoF unless the distance is less than 10cm regardless of item density.

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Last edited by Vaaish on Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Local Terrain/LoS Rules & Terrain Density - a Survey
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:35 pm 
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We play it as all terrain blocks line of sight completly. Makes it easier/faster to play and produces less arguments. Also takes aay basing shenanigans from skimmer formations and larger WE:s

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 Post subject: Re: Local Terrain/LoS Rules & Terrain Density - a Survey
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:45 pm 
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3 reasons not to make up rules for hills:
- not KISS so not good for tournaments
- messes with relative value of units (shadowswords, overlords)
- hills are normally the lowest piece of terrain so looks stupid if troops on a 2cm hill are shooting over 5cm buildings.

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 Post subject: Re: Local Terrain/LoS Rules & Terrain Density - a Survey
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:37 pm 
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Hi!

Excellent scenery!

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Local Terrain/LoS Rules & Terrain Density - a Survey
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:21 pm 
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So could I ask those who play the rules as written (which allow units, especially Titans, to shoot over certain terrain etc), how they establish whether a firing unit can shoot under these circumstances.
Do they
- use the "mk1 eyeball"?
- use a ruler or similar straight edge
- use a laser marker in some manner
- something else?

And is this activity quickly resolved?
(Both from the perspective of the person trying to hide units behind cover, as much as the person trying to shoot under these circumstances)


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 Post subject: Re: Local Terrain/LoS Rules & Terrain Density - a Survey
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:45 pm 
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@ginger: eyeball. 95% of the time there's some part of the target unit visible. As long as you can see part of the unit you can shoot it in those cases, but of course the target gets a to hit modifier. Occasionally there's a dispute at which point we roll off.

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