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A few rules queries

 Post subject: Re: A few rules queries
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:09 am 
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Ok Geep, I think you need to receive a special award for finding a loophole in the rules as written.
However merely allocating 'hits' to the transports clearly produces unintended results, by making the contents 'imune' to the consequences of losing the assault, where they would otherwise die.

Dave and Onyx, I suggest that this aspect needs a FAQ to clarify the intent of the Hackdown process with respect to shields and transported units. This represents a breakdown of unit and formation cohesion, panic etc. As well as physical casualties (dropped grenade anyone?) which is not affected by the location of the units and likewise cannot be deflected by armour or technology.


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 Post subject: Re: A few rules queries
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:21 am 
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Ginger wrote:

Dave and Onyx, I suggest that this aspect needs a FAQ to clarify the intent of the Hackdown process with respect to shields and transported units. This represents a breakdown of unit and formation cohesion, panic etc. As well as physical casualties (dropped grenade anyone?) which is not affected by the location of the units and likewise cannot be deflected by armour or technology.


Just add hackdowns to this FAQ
Quote:
Q: Does AP fire take down a Void Shield?
A: No. Only AT, MW or TK fire can affect a Void Shield. Note that FF attacks in an Assault will damage a Titan’s Void Shields. Also remember that the Titan will also receive a Blast Marker for this fire even if it can’t affect the Titan or damage its Void Shield.


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 Post subject: Re: A few rules queries
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:53 am 
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The only thing I can find for transports with troops trapped inside and hackdowns is this discussion.

http://www.taccmd.tacticalwargames.net/ ... 69&t=17758

Nealhunt states that hackdowns dont need LoS so troops inside are viable for allocation after the nearer transport/transports have been allocated hits.


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 Post subject: Re: A few rules queries
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:15 pm 
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Ginger wrote:
However merely allocating 'hits' to the transports clearly produces unintended results, by making the contents 'imune' to the consequences of losing the assault, where they would otherwise die.


A lot of the time, allocating the hits to the transports is going to result in more kills. So I'd be wary of using 'unintended' to describe this.

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 Post subject: Re: A few rules queries
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:29 pm 
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Dptdexys, thanks for finding that discussion as it does make things a lot clearer.
My comments on 'unintended' effects was aimed at only applying hits to the transports and ignoring the contents (which was the crux of Geep's argument).

So to be clear, hackdown hits are applied front to back, do not need LoS to be applied, cannot be saved by shields, hit the transport first and then its contents, and this causes any transported units to take an armour save including any that are fearless.


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 Post subject: Re: A few rules queries
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:31 pm 
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Quote:
Ok Geep, I think you need to receive a special award for finding a loophole in the rules as written.

I know I can be a pain for that, sorry. These rules are situations that probably occur frequently, and could easily be argued over, with massive in-game effects depending on how they are handled.
I expect to be attending my first Epic tournament soon, where I'm sure these issues are bound to come up, and would rather not create ill-will with my opponent or lose a game horribly due to some simple, silly rule ambiguity- some kind of official ruling is important for that.

Quote:
The only thing I can find for transports with troops trapped inside and hackdowns is this discussion.

That's a discussion from 2010, and still no FAQ has been made about the issue? Multiple people stated it's a common occurrence for them.
Who exactly is NealHunt? Is his word much stronger than that of the average forum-goer, and is it strong enough that that should be the answer regardless of the fact that it does not follow the exact rules?

Quote:
Just add hackdowns to this FAQ

That's not quite the right question to have hackdowns shoe-horned into it. That question is about what takes down shields, not what can bypass them completely (Unless you rule that hackdowns are stopped by shields, in which case they should be added to the list of what does knock down a shield in that question).

Quote:
Dave and Onyx, I suggest that this aspect needs a FAQ to clarify the intent of the Hackdown process with respect to shields and transported units. This represents a breakdown of unit and formation cohesion, panic etc. As well as physical casualties (dropped grenade anyone?) which is not affected by the location of the units and likewise cannot be deflected by armour or technology.

I support this- and offer my services as an annoying rules-writing nit-picker if wanted :P


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 Post subject: Re: A few rules queries
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:09 pm 
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Nealhunt was the original chairman of the Epic Rules Committee (ERC), wrote most if not all of the FAQs currently in use, was heavily involved with this and earlier versions of Epic (including beta testing these rules) and may even have helped Jervis Johnson with creating them. His involvement declined from ~2010, and he handed over the various responsibilities to Dave and Onyx ~2012.

FWIW, I think Dptdexys also helped beta test the rules, though he can confirm that himself. :)
(I have merely been a player/ contributor since 2005)

The rules are not considered to be well written from a 'legal' perspective, it is a game after all, hence the encouragement to develop home-grown house rules, scenarios and unit stats, all discussed in the "5 minutes warm up".

That said, the tournament scenario is the most widely played game, under the interpretation of the FAQ and usually a TO, who referees any disputes that players cannot resolve amicably. If you have any questions it is a good idea to check with him prior to the tournament to keep things running smoothly, not least because there are still some areas that are open to different interpretations.


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 Post subject: Re: A few rules queries
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:10 pm 
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Quote:
Quote:
The only thing I can find for transports with troops trapped inside and hackdowns is this discussion.

That's a discussion from 2010, and still no FAQ has been made about the issue? Multiple people stated it's a common occurrence for them.
Who exactly is NealHunt? Is his word much stronger than that of the average forum-goer, and is it strong enough that that should be the answer regardless of the fact that it does not follow the exact rules?


He was NetERC Chair and Head of rules development and FAQs, having final say on any disputes that arose.
He was part of developing the game from the outset and ,I believe, was put in placeby GW when they were still involved with the game.

Quote:
Quote:
Just add hackdowns to this FAQ

That's not quite the right question to have hackdowns shoe-horned into it. That question is about what takes down shields, not what can bypass them completely (Unless you rule that hackdowns are stopped by shields, in which case they should be added to the list of what does knock down a shield in that question).


If hackdowns gets added to the question,
Quote:
Q: Does AP fire or Hackdown hits take down a Void Shield?
A: No. Only AT, MW or TK fire can affect a Void Shield. Note that FF attacks in an Assault will damage a Titan’s Void Shields. Also remember that the Titan will also receive a Blast Marker for this fire even if it can’t affect the Titan or damage its Void Shield.


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 Post subject: Re: A few rules queries
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:18 pm 
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Ginger wrote:

FWIW, I think Dptdexys also helped beta test the rules, though he can confirm that himself. :)
(I have merely been a player/ contributor since 2005)

I was the regular opponent of Bill Ely from around 2001 who was part of development and testing of the game by GW.


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 Post subject: Re: A few rules queries
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:34 pm 
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OK, first stab:

Quote:
1.7.5 (I condensed three FAQs into one)

Q: What happens to a transported unit when the unit transporting it is destroyed by: a failed dangerous terrain test; the extra hits from the result of an assault; a Blast marker on a broken formation?

A: They make their normal armour save or a 6+ cover save, the formation they are part of does not receive a Blast marker for a failed save.

----

Q: What happens to a transported unit when the unit transporting it is destroyed from ending its second withdrawal move within 15cm of the enemy?

A: If they’re broken and not fearless they will be destroyed. Otherwise they make their normal armour save or a 6+ cover save, the formation they are part of does not receive a Blast marker for a failed save.

1.12.7

Q: Do the extra hits the losing formation suffers require a line of fire?

A: No.

----

Q: How are the extra hits the losing formation suffers allocated to a formation with units being transported?

A: Once one of these hits is allocated to a transport all units it is transporting must be allocated a hit (while any remain) before moving on to the next closest unit.

5.4.1

Q: Do void shields stop a point of damage caused by: a failed dangerous terrain test; the extra hits from the result of an assault; a Blast marker on a broken formation?

A: No.


@Geep, check your printed rulebook's title page. Neal's name is on there.

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 Post subject: Re: A few rules queries
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 3:51 pm 
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Cool- good to know people so closely associated with the game's creation are around and active.

Those FAQs seem good Dave, the only one I'd reconsider is:

Quote:
Q: How are the extra hits the losing formation suffers allocated to a formation with units being transported?

A: Once one of these hits is allocated to a transport all units it is transporting must be allocated a hit (while any remain) before moving on to the next closest unit.

If a unit is being transported in a Fearless transport, that transport can't be allocated a hit, so by the above wording the transported troops aren't necessarily next in line.

I'd maybe consider something like:
Quote:
Q: How are the extra hits the losing formation suffers allocated to a formation with units being transported?

A: Hits are allocated front to back, as normal. Units inside a transport are viable targets for receiving these hits, and are considered the next closest units after their transport. All units within a transport are considered equidistant, so if there are not enough hits to allocate to all units then the owning player may assign the hits among the transported troops.


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 Post subject: Re: A few rules queries
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 4:18 pm 
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Giving it's Fearless, I think an FAQ in 2.1.3 might be cleaner:

Quote:
Q: Can the extra hits from the result of an assault be allocated to non-fearless units being transported in a fearless unit?

A: No.

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 Post subject: Re: A few rules queries
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 4:37 pm 
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Weird- so a Fearless transport does protect the units it carries from hackdown? That is strange- and clearly against what I typed before, so ignore that I guess.

Maybe the question can be expanded and a few answers rolled together, like:
Quote:
Q: How are the extra hits from a formation losing an assault or blast markers on a broken formation allocated to a formation with units being transported?

A: If a hit is allocated to a transport, all non-fearless units it is transporting must be allocated a hit (while any remain) before moving on to the next closest unit. As a fearless transport cannot be allocated a hit, the units being transported cannot be allocated hits either.


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 Post subject: Re: A few rules queries
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 4:46 pm 
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No, being fearless merely protects the transport itself. The contents would still be eligible for hackdown hits unless they were fearless themselves.

Basically each unit is considered in turn, and if fearless you pass on to the next eligible unit until you run out of hits or units. Where the next unit is a transport containing other units, you consider the transport first an then its contents before moving on.


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 Post subject: Re: A few rules queries
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 4:54 pm 
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Is that what we landed on? I'm trying to picture how that would work?

"Let me out of this transport so I can run away!"

"Sure, here you go."

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