A question from a game yesterday:

My Death Guard are Engaging a Warlock Titan, with some supporting formations about 14cm behind the Titan. During the engage move, several of the assaulting units move into base contact with the Warlock.

Can the Warlock use it's war engine status to barge those units out of the way to get closer to the rest of the Death Guard formation? This would also have moved it out of range of supporting fire from the formation.

My argument was that you can't, as you only get a counter-charge move if you're not already in base contact and the Warlock was already in contact.

I've tried searching but couldn't find this specific situation.

P.S. Blip - we were doing the Warlock's attacks slightly wrong, War Engine CC hits can only be allocated to units in base contact and FF hits only to units not in base contact.

_________________
The Wargaming Trader
NetEA Death Guard Army Champion

The Warlock can do that, so long as what it's moving towards is the closest. Once it has it's starting DC on it though it's stopped.

_________________
Dave

Blog

NetEA Tournament Pack Website

Squats 2019-10-17

You mean the closest unit not already in base contact?

In any case, how is the basic requirement for a counter-charge move being met? It's already in base contact: 'Defending units that are not already in base contact with an enemy unit are allowed to counter charge.'.

_________________
The Wargaming Trader
NetEA Death Guard Army Champion

1.12.4 says all the normal charge rules apply, which means the WE charge rules apply to WEs. A WE can barge twice its starting DC, and the first FAQ in 3.3.1 says you can barge in a counter-charge.

Given all that, if you think we need a FAQ that says a WE can counter-charge when already in base contact I'll bring it up with Oynx.

_________________
Dave

Blog

NetEA Tournament Pack Website

Squats 2019-10-17

I think so, because as-written you have to start outside base contact to be able to be eligible to counter-charge. I read that FAQ entry as applying to War Engines that hadn't been reached.

_________________
The Wargaming Trader
NetEA Death Guard Army Champion

Yeah, it's another one of those fringe cases. I was happy to play it couldn't (and iirc it didn't make any difference anyway) but an FAQ wouldn't hurt.

As for the TK/MW attacks only being allocated in B2B - I thought there was a "flying-power fist" rule? ie. MW attacks are passed on to nearest units if all b2b units have been destroyed by standard attacks and as long as the unit has a FF stat ?

That's for non-War Engines. WE get the choice of whether to use CC or FF (and can potentially get extra attacks on both) but at the cost of having to allocate the rolls to CC units or FF units.

So the Warlock has:
6 dice that can be any mix of CC or FF (from 6DC),
2 TK d3 FF dice from the Psychic Lance,
Either 3 FF dice or 2 TK d3 FF dice from the Powerfist.

I don't think it made much difference in any of the assaults, stuff was generally surviving by being out of FF range...

_________________
The Wargaming Trader
NetEA Death Guard Army Champion

RAW, the WE / Titan must charge towards the nearest enemy. I believe Neal Hunt described this in the past as a series of micro moves to collect the nearest enemy units around it's base. As Dave says, once the DC limit is reached, the countercharge is stopped. However, if this limit is not reached when the last charging unit is contacted, the Titan must then move towards the next nearest enemy (which it probably won't reach). As Dave says, this may well move the WE /Titan out of support fire range of any friendly formation directly to its rear.

The corollary is where the charging formation is positioned 14cm from the front of the Titan, with supporting friends closer and to the rear of the Titan. This can result in the Titan countercharging out of assault range of the original chargers.

Not sure that this needs a FAQ.

I'm not really sure about this interpretation. The question isn't about whether WEs can barge (they can) or which units you must counter charge towards (the nearest). It's about what conditions need to be met to be able to counter-charge at all. For regular units it's quite clear, you only can counter-charge if you are not in base contact. Note that this is not the same restriction as the maximum units you can be in base contact with (i.e. 2) - even if you are able to be in base contact with another unit, you still can't counter-charge.

In the RAW I see no exception to this rule for WEs - and the FAQ only says that if they counter-charge then they can barge. It says nothing about them getting a counter-charge even if they are in base contact. A unit that is in base contact doesn't need to be able to barge in order to counter-charge another unit. The reason they can't is that the rules say only units not in base contact are allowed to.

Nor do the rules say anywhere that a WE -must- keep moving to try to get into base contact with 2xDC units in a counter-charge. War engines are allowed to barge, they are not required to. Regular units are not required to put themselves in base contact with 2 units even if they enter the ZoC, so I don't see why WEs should be required to do the equivalent (i.e. 2xDC). I can see why you might say they must try to base 1xDC units (reasoning that this is equivalent to a regular unit being required to enter base contact with a single unit if it enters its ZoC) but if you read it that way it would have a range of weird consequences IMO - i.e. WEs don't count as being in base contact at all unless they are contacted by 1xDC units.

I don't think I'd have a problem with anyone interpreting things in these ways, but nor do I think they exist within the rules as written. I think you could just as easily give the reverse answer, i.e. no, WEs aren't allowed to counter charge if they're already in BtB, but if they do countercharge then they can barge upto 2xDC units from the assaulting formation.

_________________
Kyrt's Battle Result Tracker (forum post is here)
Kyrt's trade list

Noted.

_________________
Just call me Steve.

NetEA Rules Chair
NetEA FAQ

Want to play Iron Warriors in Epic Armageddon? Click HERE
Some of my Armies.
My Hobby site.

A question came up in WoTT where it was asked if a WE can charge a formation get into BtB with part of the target formation and then drag these backwards, say out of cover.

Thoughts?

_________________
_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion

Personally I would say the WE could only do this if it was fast (ie Warhound), the enemy formation was less than 2x it's DC and there was another enemy in that direction - so in theory, yes, but unlikely. In practice this would mean that the WE was effectively surrounded.

Onyx, There are a few titans which have directional weapons in CC. In your musings could you also consider whether pivoting would be considered a counter-charge and the circumstances under which this is permitted / prohibited.

That was my issue exactly - an FAQ entry that says 'if X, then Y' but nothing in the rules or FAQs that allows X in the given situation.

I don't particularly care which way it's played, but if WE are allowed to counter-charge when already in base contact that definitely requires an FAQ.

_________________
The Wargaming Trader
NetEA Death Guard Army Champion

Agreed.

It's not too much of a leap to think "one thing in base contact prevents a unit from counter-charging, and since a WE counts as DC things , DC things in base contact should stop it from counter-charging" but that's not started anywhere. Plus, WE's can keep on barging until they have twice their DC in base contact so that throws the logic above out the window...



See #3 here, Tim: http://www.tp.net-armageddon.org/faq/#charge-moves

_________________
Dave

Blog

NetEA Tournament Pack Website

Squats 2019-10-17

Umm, that does not sound right Dave.
It suggests that the WE / titan can 'dive into contact' and then retire when it suits them, ignoring the rules on countercharging, which require the unit to move towards enemies.

Am I missing something here (as usual )