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Transports destroyed in assaults

 Post subject: Transports destroyed in assaults
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:20 am 
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I didn't find anything in the master FAQ for this:

If a transport is destroyed in an assault but the troops inside survive, do they become valid targets for allocation of MW hits, which are allocated after normal hits? In shooting the FAQ says this is possible, so I guess it should be the same for assaults?

Assuming the answer to the above is yes can the troops, suddenly finding themselves in the midst of combat, now use their attacks? If not, they could potentially be allocated hits (in addition to the hits suffered from being inside the transport) despite not being able to participate in the assault themselves. I'm not sure how this is affected by the part of the assault rules that suggests there is no "order" to each player's attacks.

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 Post subject: Re: Transports destroyed in assaults
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:40 am 
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I believe the answers are yes and no, respectively.

Truly, those who stay in transports and get assaulted are despised by fate.

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 Post subject: Re: Transports destroyed in assaults
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:46 am 
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I'd agree with yes and no.


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 Post subject: Re: Transports destroyed in assaults
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:55 pm 
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Kyrt wrote:
If a transport is destroyed in an assault but the troops inside survive, do they become valid targets for allocation of MW hits, which are allocated after normal hits? In shooting the FAQ says this is possible, so I guess it should be the same for assaults?

I'd say yes too.

Quote:
Assuming the answer to the above is yes can the troops, suddenly finding themselves in the midst of combat, now use their attacks? If not, they could potentially be allocated hits (in addition to the hits suffered from being inside the transport) despite not being able to participate in the assault themselves. I'm not sure how this is affected by the part of the assault rules that suggests there is no "order" to each player's attacks.


They wouldn't be allowed to use their attacks (unless another round of combat happened due to a draw).
All attacks should have been completed before either side have moved on to making saving rolls (first strike attacks is an exception). There isn't an order of which side attacks first (again first strike is an exception to the order of attacks) but both sides have to complete their attacks before they start allocating hits to units.


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 Post subject: Re: Transports destroyed in assaults
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:54 am 
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dptdexys wrote:
They wouldn't be allowed to use their attacks (unless another round of combat happened due to a draw).
All attacks should have been completed before either side have moved on to making saving rolls (first strike attacks is an exception). There isn't an order of which side attacks first (again first strike is an exception to the order of attacks) but both sides have to complete their attacks before they start allocating hits to units.

The yes and no consensus seems sensible, but I'm not sure it's for the reason you state here. The question of whether they get to use their attacks only exists precisely because all attacks are not completed before moving onto saves - if they were, then macro weapons would not be able to be allocated onto anything inside transports (hence my question).

That's not to say that players are doing their attacks one after the other (in fact, granting them attacks would make that happen). It's an esoteric and useless point of debate, but really what is happening is that the application of an order within each player's attacks don't necessarily make sense in the context of the other's, if that makes sense? i.e. I can attack you but you can't attack me. It's like each side carries out its attacks in one parallel universe and defends them in another. :) It makes sense as a game mechanic, it just "feels a bit weird" to me.

As I say it's academic anyway, "yes and no" seems sensible to me. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Transports destroyed in assaults
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:14 am 
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Think of it as them getting immediately ripped apart when they come out of their transports, due to not expecting their safe tank to go kablooey.

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 Post subject: Re: Transports destroyed in assaults
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:30 am 
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Simulated Knave wrote:
Think of it as them getting immediately ripped apart when they come out of their transports, due to not expecting their safe tank to go kablooey.

Oh I have no trouble with the suggestion that surviving a transport vehicle exploding around you only to get a melta blast in your face isn't going to be conducive to a long life!

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 Post subject: Re: Transports destroyed in assaults
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:56 am 
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Kyrt wrote:
The yes and no consensus seems sensible, but I'm not sure it's for the reason you state here. The question of whether they get to use their attacks only exists precisely because all attacks are not completed before moving onto saves - if they were, then macro weapons would not be able to be allocated onto anything inside transports (hence my question).


Yes, all attack rolls are made before making any saving rolls,The assault rules state.
Quote:
Each player allocates the hits and make saving throws in the same manner as they would when allocating hits from shooting.

So following that procedure means,
Quote:
1.9.3 Shooting Procedure
This is a summary of the shooting procedure. We’ll work through it step–by–step in the rules that follow.
I – Place one Blast marker on the target formation.
II – Roll to hit.
III – Allocate hits, make saving throws and remove casualties.

IV – Place additional Blast markers for casualties and check to see if the enemy formation is broken.

All attack rolls are made first then allocated as explained in 1.9.6
Quote:
If an attacking formation scores hits both with normal weapons and weapons with the macroweapon ability, then the opposing player must allocate and make any saves for the normal hits first, and then allocate and make any saves for the macro- weapon hits. Hits from macro-weapons can only be applied to units that are in a position to be hit by a macro-weapon
(Note: With the exception of War Engines (see 3.3.2), during
an assault, all units up to 15cm away are valid targets for
allocation, regardless of whether the hits are from CC or FF.).


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 Post subject: Re: Transports destroyed in assaults
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:06 pm 
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And once again, dptdexys is correct. First Strike aside, all to-hit rolls are made before any hits are allocated/resolved. Resolving hits doesn't retroactively create an opportunity to attack because the to-hit phase is over.

For a different example, a Warhound titan which took a critical hit and staggered into range of more enemies wouldn't suddenly be swamped with a new round of assault fire.


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