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The Best and Worst of Epic
MaksimSmelchak
 Post subject: The Best and Worst of Epic
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2003 12:12 am 
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Gandalf,

I know you guys are not going to agree with me, but Epic40k kind of sneaked up on me awhile back, and after re-reading many of my articles for Adeptus Titanicus and Epic Space Marine, Epic 40k is just easier to collect for.


I definitely agree with you here. E40k is the easiest to collect for since it's by far the most flexible sytem for collecting minis. You never have an "odd man out" with E40k.

I still like SM-2/TL better because the fluff was so rich. The game did bog down after awhile with all of the special rules, but I prefer it moving lifeless chits with little to no variety. I'd be playing my bookcase Avalon Hills games if that's what I wanted.

The fact that I can take any Ork vehicle, whether it be a Gutrippa, Bonebreaka, or Gobsmasha, and refer to it as an Ork Battlewagon is actually pretty awesome. It doesn't require specific rules, and allows me to use new minis GW releases in the future without worrying if I have the stats right.


I didn't like this aspect of E40k because Once the sytem is boiled down to generic stats, the units lose their "fluff" flavour. In the Ork's case, Ork fluff makes them happen for me. Having a whole pile of cool different-looking models simplified to one set of stats makes the game droll for me.

I like the idea about the stats being flexible in the future.

However, wouldn't it just be better to keep the variety of units in the game?

Having Pulsa Rockits and Big Gunz boiled down to one category is a grave injustice to the Orks!  

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Maksim-Smelchak.

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MaksimSmelchak
 Post subject: The Best and Worst of Epic
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2003 12:16 am 
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I spent the weekend cleaning out and organizing all my gaming stuff...


I also cleaned out my stuff over the wekend so if you're waiting for me to get back to you (Signius, PG, etc.) about a trade, I'm on it.

My Epic armourery is almost organized again!

Shalom,
Maksim-smelchak.

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signius
 Post subject: The Best and Worst of Epic
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2003 1:07 am 
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Yeah, its the same old argument. One everyone will never agree on. Except maybe agreeing to disagree.
I would personally burn my copy of epic 40k before getting rid of the older game but that's just me.  :p

Max! Awsome! I await your response. It is your move.  :)

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Tas
 Post subject: The Best and Worst of Epic
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2003 2:17 am 
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Quote (signius @ 28 2003 May,10:07)
Yeah, its the same old argument. One everyone will never agree on. Except maybe agreeing to disagree.

But thats the beautiful thing about a forum like this- we can agree to disagree and get along and get on with gaming.  There is no Big Brother saying "You must do this"...

Oh hang on...there is!  We just ignore him, buy the minis we want from him, then tell him to get stuffed
:;):

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Gandalf the Grey
 Post subject: The Best and Worst of Epic
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2003 3:04 am 
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Hey Signius, did Epic40k sleep with your girlfriend or something??? You sound so bitter when Epic40k comes up, haha.

Well, I was just pointing out that when I was organizing, I really had forgotten how much crap (okay, not a good word for my faavorite game) such as counters etc etc made up SM/TL. ?AS most of you do, I have every supplement, just about all the minis, etc and there is alot! ?I do feel like I got my money's worth from it all, and almost wish there were more tid-bits included in Epic40k, but that is okay.

As far as the fluff Maksim, that is the one thing I loved about SM/TL. ?It's fluff presentation was great. ?If the Epic40k Armies book just dedicated more space to it, rather then suggest players to read other GW material, it would be all that I need. ?However, sometimes I think it was overkill in SM/TL. ?Did I really need the Fire Prism to fire at another to increase the power of the shot? An entire page dedicated to the Shokk Attack Gun (which is one hell of an Orky weapon)?

I guess I am willing to over look the lack of specifics in Epic40k because I see the big picture. ?I would rather focus on my detachment, it's place on the board, and what to do next, rather than going from stat line to stat line rolling all the individual rolls for specific weapons. ?I guess as I get older I am getting more lazy and this just works for me now. ?I leave the variety to the models, which I really like to customize. ?I guess I realized this a few weeks ago after playing Epic40k for several months, we tried out SM/TL again and I found myself annoyed with the rules for Khorne Daemon Engines. ?All that time re-reading the rules and making sure I had them positioned right and they all were destroyed. ?A lot of effort and not much in return in game time. ?I am not blaming the rules for my tactics, I am just saying that the time I spent making sure I understood them far exceeded the time I needed to move them and roll hit dice. ?Do you see what I mean?

I also like developing a history for my detachments too, and earning experience. ?I'll admit that my group doesn't always care for it, but oh well. ?

I guess I can compare it like this. ?Necromunda (I only know the old one, not the recently redux version) is a great game, but 40k is far easier to play drop and go games and there is no depth. ?Epic 40k can be great too, but SM/TL is far easier to pick up and play, but because I can design my detachments in Epic40k, they require more thought. ?I guess it just matters what you are in the mood for.

Don't get me wrong, I really had my fun with the earlier systems, I was just pointing out that AT/SM and SM/TL seem more trapped in time, whereas Epic 40k seems to be a game that could continue to evolve it if had a greater following. ?Without ATII. ?

And it all fits in the freakin box!!!!!!

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Legion 4
 Post subject: The Best and Worst of Epic
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2003 4:41 am 
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That's why we went to a Hybrid system, Gandalf, for many of the reasons you mentioned. ?Fire Power Factors is a lot more efficient than any other system. Making all Ork Battle Wagons the same simplifies things greatly. ? These kind of things makes sense to us, where the game is still playable without being too simplistic and some form of tactics can still be used. ?So as I always say, do what works for you ... and we have been doing this for years. ?:D ?Go for it !!!

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signius
 Post subject: The Best and Worst of Epic
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2003 5:48 am 
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Quote (Gandalf the Grey @ 27 2003 May,19:04)
Hey Signius, did Epic40k sleep with your girlfriend or something??? You sound so bitter when Epic40k comes up, haha.

No, I am the one who feels like I have been violated by Epic40k. (unclean...unclean..)
:p
I really didn't like the generalizing of the system. It hit me like a ton of bricks. I felt betrayed and alone. OK, I am overdramatizing but, I wasn't happy.  :D

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Gandalf the Grey
 Post subject: The Best and Worst of Epic
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2003 2:52 pm 
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LOL

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Tas
 Post subject: The Best and Worst of Epic
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2003 3:09 am 
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I agree with Max, here

While I thought the mechanisms for E40k were a better wargame overall, the lack of fluff and depth annoyed me, and the make your own army up offended my militaristic sence of organisation.  It always seemed a bit too "min/max" for me, especially as I really liked the Company card system of 2nd ed

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dafrca
 Post subject: The Best and Worst of Epic
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2003 4:42 am 
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It is hard for me to understand the whole Epic40k issue. I played Space Marine and then left the Epic fold until this year when I heard about EpicA and thought I would get back into the game. So I missed the Epic40k all together.

dafrca

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stormseer
 Post subject: The Best and Worst of Epic
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2003 4:37 pm 
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Heh..

Guess some people here would say you were lucky Dafrca, not really including me- the E40k system is alright, if rather flavourless...

BFG is more suited to the 'firepower table' style IMHO, as there are no clearly defined weapons with different effects, which is not the case in Epic.... :-:

-Hope you all get my random musings..... ?:p

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Legion 4
 Post subject: The Best and Worst of Epic
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2003 5:22 pm 
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Random musings are a good thing, if mine were any more random I'd be institutionalized ! :laugh:

But bottom line is all this discussion is also a good thing because we can exchange ideas, techniques, etc.

However most of us will never meet let alone play a game together, so regardless, you could play with any models with any set of rules in the privacy of your War Room and I won't tell the boyz from the =][= ... :laugh:

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stormseer
 Post subject: The Best and Worst of Epic
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2003 5:34 pm 
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Yeah,

I have to agree with you L4, this topic has been one of the most interesting to appear on the boards for me....

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primarch
 Post subject: The Best and Worst of Epic
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2003 6:13 pm 
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Hi!



No, I am the one who feels like I have been violated by Epic40k. (unclean...unclean..)


No, you're not alone. In fact there's a secret place where poeple like you lurk and prosper...its called the netepic mailing list.... :L

...its not that secret though. :)

Well, those who have been on the net back in the "age of strife" when epic40k came out can remember my zealous ranting against the new system and the numerous argumentative posts and flamewars related to my opinions regarding it...ah...those where fun days.... }:)

Its all a matter of taste. For those who love epic40k they gape mystified how those who love SM/TL/Netepic at its "cumbersome complexity and uninspired game play". Its the same emotion expressed by the other side for those who love the "vanilla dumbing down" of epic40k. I think the two games speak to different types of gamers and their personalities, thats part of the reason why sometimes these debates get out of hand, because people want to defend the game system that champions their beliefs on how that scale or system should "ideally" be.

Why do you think so many discussions end in comments like:

"It sucks.."
"I just dont like it"
"too simple for my tastes"
"to complex and slow for me"
"too many rules"
"Too few options"

and a hundred more like these. Its all subjective. Problem is, humans that we are, everyones wants THEIR subjectivity to be OBJECTIVE fact. Rubbish.

There is no such thing as a perfect game for everyone, thats why gamers like to tweak and make home rules so much. they change things to reflect "their" ideal and tastes. I think that is a good thing, the hobby is supposed to be creative, regardless of what certain "companies" what you to believe and do.

Coordinating netepic has taught me a valuable lesson in not expecting anything from a game company that I can't do for myself. I thank GW and Jervis for creating epic in the first place, great idea, lots of fun. But I have long since stopped depending on them for the enjoyment of my epic hobby. Sure its nice to have a strongly supported game, new minis and new blood coming into epic, but not at the expense of MY vision, entertainment and money.

So play what you will, when you will and it whatever form you desire. Epic, as a hobby, wins when you play it.

All esle is secondary.

Todays fanatical post is brought to you by:

Primarch
Epic 'ol gitz and all around 'ol foggie.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: The Best and Worst of Epic
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2003 5:29 am 
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Yes,

I think we can all agree it is a matter of personal taste and preference, based on our own backgrounds, concepts, etc. My one friend is a "rabid" SM2 player, straight from the box. Here's a thought...

What rules for Epic do most of you all use out there???? ?

You know me, I'm a Hybrid/ House Rule player
:p ?

What "Tome" runs your Epic Universe?? ?:;):

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