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Deathstrike drop pod breaks.

 Post subject: Deathstrike drop pod breaks.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:28 pm 
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Well everyone from the Euros are far to busy slapping each other to ask this, so I will post.
We saw a situation where an old landa had two BM, and got shot at by a drop pod.
The shot obviously caused a BM, and so broke the landa.
As fate would have it, the land was on its last wound.

So began the debate.

Dose the drop pod cause a wound to the landa as being a unit within 15cm of a newly broken unit?

Well let's get rid of the obvious - the debate here is about a broken unit, taking a wound as it can't run away, and if a deathwind drop pod, or it's crew count for that.

(For the record, there was a lot of good arguments each way. I felt that drop pod are unique, they do not exist as units. The transported troops are still in board at the time off the deathstrike, so this should be treated like two units; i.e a war engine and an on board transport. The transporting unit not then impacting.
This then turns on the nature of the drop pod being or not being a unit)
The tournament couldn't decide, and it was decided by dice.

Lawyers of epic, your thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: Deathstrike drop pod breaks.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:52 pm 
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Dan 1314 wrote:
Well everyone from the Euros are far to busy slapping each other to ask this, so I will post.
We saw a situation where an old landa had two BM, and got shot at by a drop pod.
The shot obviously caused a BM, and so broke the landa.
As fate would have it, the land was on its last wound.

So began the debate.

Dose the drop pod cause a wound to the landa as being a unit within 15cm of a newly broken unit?

Well let's get rid of the obvious - the debate here is about a broken unit, taking a wound as it can't run away, and if a deathwind drop pod, or it's crew count for that.

(For the record, there was a lot of good arguments each way. I felt that drop pod are unique, they do not exist as units. The transported troops are still in board at the time off the deathstrike, so this should be treated like two units; i.e a war engine and an on board transport. The transporting unit not then impacting.
This then turns on the nature of the drop pod being or not being a unit)
The tournament couldn't decide, and it was decided by dice.

Lawyers of epic, your thoughts?

Firstly do you mean deathwind not deathstrike.

A formation becoming broken does not automatically take a wound so why would the landa in the situation above.
As you stated the drop pod is not a unit so unless there are other units nearby that would cause damage to landa when it broke (see 3.2.4) it takes no extra damage.

Troops in the Drop Pod do not dismount until after the deathwind attacks are made so are not there on the table when the landa broke.

from Drop Pod notes section.
Quote:
After the Drop Pod marker lands its Deathwind attacks all enemy units within 15cms of the centre of the Drop Pod. Each enemy formation attacked receives a blast marker for coming under fire and an extra blast marker for each casualty. Then any troops carried in the Drop Pod must disembark (this can trigger overwatch as normal) completely within 15cms of the centre of the Drop Pod, in coherency and outside an enemy zone of control. The Drop Pod is not a unit but a marker, it does not count for formation coherency purposes and cannot be used for claiming crossfire or to hold or dispute objectives, it also does not have a zone of control.


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 Post subject: Re: Deathstrike drop pod breaks.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:19 am 
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What broke the landa? If it broke from orbital barrage, pin-point or planetfall/deathwind all thosr happen as part of the SC's activation, so the landa would only break after all those have been resolved.

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 Post subject: Re: Deathstrike drop pod breaks.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:37 am 
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Yes, deathwind, -deathstrike droppods were just a beautiful dream.

The issue is that of broken units, and if their is a unit within 15cm.

As above, part of this is impacted by when the unit breaks.. - e.g if The unit breaks once the whole spaceship activation is complete (which seems straightforward) does this include units disembarking?


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 Post subject: Re: Deathstrike drop pod breaks.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:56 pm 
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Yes it would. Which means it would take a wound.

But even if not, there is still a potential argument debate whether units inside other things still count as "being there". They may not have a zone of control or line of sight, being embarked, but they still exist and still have a position on the board, no?

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 Post subject: Re: Deathstrike drop pod breaks.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:58 pm 
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As others have implied, this question has an element of timing involved which at first glance is unclear.

The events appear to have been thus:-
  • Spaceship activates, placing the Drop pod which shoots at nearby enemy causing a BM on the Landa.
  • This causes the Landa to break and make a withdrawal move, which the Landa cannot make.
    (we are assuming there are no other enemy units within 15cm at this point).
  • Question :- When does the Landa break, now or later?

The key to this debate is 1.13.2 Becoming Broken
Quote:
Check to see if a formation is broken after it receives any Blast markers (either from failing an Action test, shooting or winning an assault). Formations that lose an assault are automatically broken. You should completely resolve an assault or an attacking formation’s shooting before checking to see if the target formation breaks (i.e., don’t break a formation that comes under fire until all of the shooting has been resolved).
(My emphasis)

The Drop Pod fires as part of the movement of the landing marines, but they complete their move and disembark after the Deathwind shooting has been resolved.

So, I agree with dptdexys, the Landa breaks immediately, and since there are no real units within 15cm, it does not suffer any further effects. (The same situation would also happen if the Landa was broken by the SC orbital barrage)

However, since this forms part of the Spaceship's activation, a second Drop pod could land within 15cm of the Landa and fire causing a BM on the broken Landa, which causes a third hit automatically destroying it.


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 Post subject: Re: Deathstrike drop pod breaks.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:27 am 
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Do units inside other units, count as "being within 15cm", for the purposes of this rule?

I can see that this will need clearing up in other situations also.

For example broken units inside a fearless Transport. If it finishes a move within 15cm of enemy units, are the units within the Transport destroyed, or are they "not there"?

My gut feeling would be to say they should be considered as "being there", and thus the units inside the Drop Pod that breaks something nearby with its Deathwind attack should also be considered as "being there", so to speak.

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 Post subject: Re: Deathstrike drop pod breaks.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:46 am 
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Dan 1314 wrote:
Well everyone from the Euros are far to busy slapping each other to ask this, so I will post.
We saw a situation where an old landa had two BM, and got shot at by a drop pod.
The shot obviously caused a BM, and so broke the landa.
As fate would have it, the land was on its last wound.

So began the debate.

Dose the drop pod cause a wound to the landa as being a unit within 15cm of a newly broken unit?

Well let's get rid of the obvious - the debate here is about a broken unit, taking a wound as it can't run away, and if a deathwind drop pod, or it's crew count for that.

(For the record, there was a lot of good arguments each way. I felt that drop pod are unique, they do not exist as units. The transported troops are still in board at the time off the deathstrike, so this should be treated like two units; i.e a war engine and an on board transport. The transporting unit not then impacting.
This then turns on the nature of the drop pod being or not being a unit)
The tournament couldn't decide, and it was decided by dice.

Lawyers of epic, your thoughts?


That’s not quite what the issue was.

Basically the deathwind gave the landa a 3rd BM which broke it. The landa was obviously within 15 cm of the pod so is the landa destroyed (as the pod is a transport so thus must have units in it). Basically the question is, does a drop pod count as a unit before the infantry in it deploy? Pretty niche I know.

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 Post subject: Re: Deathstrike drop pod breaks.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:01 pm 
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It doesn't break until the end of the SC's activation. Disembarking from the Drop Pods is part of the SC's activation, so they can't move into the Landa's ZoC, it's still on the table at that point.

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 Post subject: Re: Deathstrike drop pod breaks.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:30 pm 
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I am not sure I agree with you there Dave, as I posted above.
Normally, a single activation results in a single batch of shooting at a single target, so the resolution of the shooting would also equate to the end of the activation.

Eldar however can use hit-and-run tactics to advance, shoot and break an enemy formation, and then retire. If they did this against the damaged Landa I suggest that the Landa would be destroyed being within 15cm of the firers, even if they then moved back outside 15cm as part of their activation.

So I believe you resolve the shooting and then immediately resolve the effects (including breaking) before continuing with the 'rest' of the activation (which could contain several further events in the case of a spacecraft).


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 Post subject: Re: Deathstrike drop pod breaks.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:17 pm 
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Ginger wrote:
So I believe you resolve the shooting and then immediately resolve the effects (including breaking) before continuing with the 'rest' of the activation (which could contain several further events in the case of a spacecraft).


You do not. This is covered in 4.3.2 FAQ: http://www.tp.net-armageddon.org/faq/#4 ... -operation

You need to have a talk with your 2011 self about it though and reach an agreement. :P

Resolving the effects immediately would mean potentially withdrawing to be hit by another deathwind or the orbital bombardment. Not fun, and something I got clarification on from Neal 10ish years ago. You break at the end of the activation. We likely should FAQ that for hit and run, I'll bring it up with the ERC.

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 Post subject: Re: Deathstrike drop pod breaks.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:06 pm 
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My 2011 self just gave me a severe telling off :D :{[]


Given this FAQ (which I missed), it is the order of space operations that have been modified, and should be clear. As you say, Neal introduced this FAQ specifically to avoid multiple Drop pods being used to strip away succesive layers of screening units to facilitate a devastating assault on those formations behind.
So to be clear, the Drop pod shoots inflicting a BM, the marines disembark from the Drop pod and then the Landa breaks with on-table enemy within 15cms, suffering further Hack-down hits (per 3.2.4) and is destroyed.

As such, the Eldar hit-and-run question should not need a separate FAQ, because it would follow the normal rules and the shooting would be resolved (including the withdrawal of broken enemy) before the Eldar make their second move.


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