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Pinpoint Attacks.

 Post subject: Pinpoint Attacks.
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 9:15 pm 
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Ok. The first point is the current practice is well established, and so not really in debate. Instead, I'm asking the communities thoughts on if it needs changed. (In looking at the Epic UK rules, but assume Net Ea is the same).

Sooo. Pin point spaceship attacks can only hit war engines, fine, but where it hurts is where they 'snipe'. There are only three armies (i think) who can get hurt by this, and even this is a sliding scale. IG could lose the commisar in a S.Heavy tank company, but nobodies really losing sleep over that.
But Yme-loc and knights could have their supreme commander as a war engine.
This makes the pinpoint attack horrible against these armies (and they aren't the best armies to start with...). With there being no front unit (as there would be if you got shot at by deathstrikes) there is little that can be done to stop this other than hunkering into ruins.

So, opinions below, is this
1 just the nature of the game.
2 needing changed to assume that it hits the nearest unit to the opponents edge
3 undeniable proof that I have no life and worry about does (and also 1).

Thanks for all thoughts.


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 Post subject: Re: Pinpoint Attacks.
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 9:24 pm 
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Actually there's several IG lists that have SCs mounted in a W/E as well. Doesn't discount your point but does effect some guard lists the same way (relative extents are open for debate of course).

Good post. I look forward to seeing inputs from the greats about this.

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 Post subject: Re: Pinpoint Attacks.
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 9:36 pm 
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You measure from the placed spaceship model rather than let them pick the target WE in the formation.

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 Post subject: Re: Pinpoint Attacks.
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 9:46 am 
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I agree that this is a problem for knights (and others but i don't play thoose lists)! I've moaned about this on a couple of occasions to my opponents. Could it help to make it so that it's up to the player on the recieving end of the attack which WE (in a formation with more than 1 WE) gets hit?

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 Post subject: Re: Pinpoint Attacks.
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 10:12 am 
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Tim is correct that the spaceship model is used as the source of the pin-point attack which then hit the closest WE in the target formation front to back from there. A knight player can just deploy other knights in the baron’s formation closer to the spacecraft to take the hit(s). If a Yme-lock player selects a Bonesinger SC in a lone WE then it is vulnerable to being picked out and targeted but he could also take 1-2 other WE in that formation to take the hits or just add the Bonesinger to a Falcon formation instead (which is probably the wiser/safer option).

The spacecraft rules state: “Spacecraft are set up touching their own side’s table edge (choose an edge randomly if your side doesn’t have a table edge in the scenario being played), facing in any direction.” If the placement had no game effect there would be no point in this being specified.


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 Post subject: Re: Pinpoint Attacks.
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:04 pm 
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Yes "pick a target" from 4.3.4 is ambiguous, it could mean target unit or formation. But 1.9.1 refers to formations as targets, and given we're talking about shooting here I see no reason why we shouldn't be following the rules/procedure for it.

Exceptions are called out in 4.3.4, namely being able to split your fire and target multiple WEs (and thus formations) with the attacks.

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 Post subject: Re: Pinpoint Attacks.
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:48 pm 
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I've always played it pick any WE so barons are on the menu for me.

Losing the SC to a arty shot could do the same yeah?

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 Post subject: Re: Pinpoint Attacks.
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 3:22 pm 
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The placement of the Space craft is used only for working out the position of Drop Pods and Orbital Bombardments as stated in the rules not Pin Point attacks.
I personally prefer to use one of the table corners to measure from as , from my experience, they never get knocked out of position or onto the floor.
From 4.3.4
Quote:
Pick a target anywhere on the table and then attack it with any pin-point attacks the spacecraft may have. You may target different war engines with each pin-point attack if you wish, or concentrate all of the attacks on a single target. Note that you do not need to record the co-ordinates of pin-point attacks.

You could argue that the rules are ambiguous as to if it means formation or individual units when mentioning targets. But as it does not give any mention of how to differentiate between units in a formation with multiple units, Steel Legion SHT formations as an example, this does not hold water for me.

If players agree a change is needed to stop pin point sniping I would recommend just making it a random roll to see which WE in the formation is hit. A simple D3/D6 or so on would be easiest and could still allow for a lucky strike on an important target.


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 Post subject: Re: Pinpoint Attacks.
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 4:53 pm 
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I have always just played it as 'pick any war engine(s)'. I guess the rules are ambiguous enough to make it FAQ-able but measuring from the spacecraft seems tenuous from the RAW.

Personally I don't see it as an issue, I've always just regarded it as a factor I need to consider with yme loc. For example you deploy the SC unit in cover and another WE out of cover to give your opponent something to ponder. True it affects some armies and not others, but then again pinpoint spacecraft can themselves be situational - there are certain armies they cannot affect at all (this happens surprisingly often and is the reason I rarely take the Tau Protector).

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 Post subject: Re: Pinpoint Attacks.
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 5:20 pm 
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Kyrt wrote:
I have always just played it as 'pick any war engine(s)'. I guess the rules are ambiguous enough to make it FAQ-able but measuring from the spacecraft seems tenuous from the RAW.

Personally I don't see it as an issue, I've always just regarded it as a factor I need to consider with yme loc. For example you deploy the SC unit in cover and another WE out of cover to give your opponent something to ponder. True it affects some armies and not others, but then again pinpoint spacecraft can themselves be situational - there are certain armies they cannot affect at all (this happens surprisingly often and is the reason I rarely take the Tau Protector).


Completely agree. It's not like spaceships are overpowered in general. The Despoiler Battleship has 3, and I've never seen anyone play with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Pinpoint Attacks.
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 11:15 pm 
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I agree that measuring from the Space Ship doesnt work, as noted above, I tend to use the space ship (when i even remember a model) as something to stop me from forgetting my re-roll dice.
Measuring from it, especially if its a turn three space ship, would get silly.
when i played Mike (quality player and very fair) we discussed this, and he advised that it had been done to him - which is why I started with the assumption this was settled, though apparently not.
I also agree that space ships are either a lottery, or a scalpel in the right hands :) ...but mainly a lottery.
Though this said, the impact on knights (mainly) and Eldar (never used a war engine SC eldar, its as rare as rocking horse sht) is noticeable.
Really this is only going to matter when playing knights with a pin point, (take a count of the amount of times youve done that....) , that said, I like the idea of rolling a dice to decide who gets hit. - mainly because I like randomness in my games (to hide a lack of strategy).


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 Post subject: Re: Pinpoint Attacks.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:36 am 
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Years ago I played Carlos' knights (ex knights army champion) and he said that me Baron sniping with a pinpoint was legitimate (only did one wound sadly). I saw a game between MarkW and Rug where Rug thought sniping a commisar SHT from a company was not ok.

Clearly it could do with a FAQ. I don't massively care but if had tocome off the fence would say random seems fair

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 Post subject: Re: Pinpoint Attacks.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:57 pm 
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ffoley wrote:
Years ago I played Carlos' knights (ex knights army champion) and he said that me Baron sniping with a pinpoint was legitimate (only did one wound sadly). I saw a game between MarkW and Rug where Rug thought sniping a commisar SHT from a company was not ok.

Clearly it could do with a FAQ. I don't massively care but if had tocome off the fence would say random seems fair


From memory we randomised it... which would be my preference!

I can see the "closest target to the placed spacecraft position" but it's not very practicable.... you'll be randomising so frequently anyway when people forget to place their spacecraft on a board edge!

If a Shadowsword or Super Zapp can't snipe a particular WE in a formation why should a spacecraft? It also strikes me that despite the fact the "sniper" rule was intended for infantry, it stands to reason that it either wouldn't exist, or would be in the pin-point notes if you could pick our specific WE from a formation.

I'd be all for Tau being allowed to "pin-point snipe" markerlit targets and Necrons and maybe Eldar having "sniper" in their pin-point notes. It would add a little more flavour and variety into an aspect of the game which is otherwise a bit generic and sterile.


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 Post subject: Re: Pinpoint Attacks.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:59 pm 
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Always assumed you could choose within a WE formation (had it done to me and done to others) and had never considered otherwise until reading this thread. If this had just come up mid game i'd have felt my opponent was being unreasonable/gamey/lawyery if they wanted it random or based on a table edge … so please FAQ!

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 Post subject: Re: Pinpoint Attacks.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:08 pm 
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So you can snipe singleton baneblade/shadowswords/voidspinners but as soon as you get a company of them, the targeting guy on the spaceship goes 'THREE war engines? In that case I'll turn off the targeting computer and just use the Force(TM) and hope to hit the one with the commander onboard'

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