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Legal sequence during a double action??

 Post subject: Legal sequence during a double action??
PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 9:44 pm 
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Need help to see if a tactic is legal:

My Executioner is planetfalling in with 2 vessels of pain and 2 formations of scourges inside it (they fit). I activate the Executioner for a double action and all then units inside disembark in B2B contact with the Executioner and then fires as 1 unit. All 4 formations then embark again and then the executioner does it's double move away to safety (from some attacks anyway since its always popped up from being a support craft).

Is thiis a legal action sequence? Remember I'm using the "hit and run" eldar special rule that lets me fire when ever during the doule move. But can i do the disembark->shoot->embark->move->move sequence?

This is the EpicUK Dark eldar list I'm using...

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 Post subject: Re: Legal sequence during a double action??
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 9:49 am 
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I have checked the rules for War Engine Transports, and pasted in the following snippet from the tournament pack section 3.1.3, shows that once the units have remounted, the War Engine. The War Engine may no longer take any actions that turn - such as a double move.

For a formation to mount up in this way the units that are
getting on board must be able to move into base contact with the
war engine during their action. The war engine is allowed to have
taken an action before the other formation mounts up, but may
not take an action after they have done so. While being
transported the units may not shoot or carry out any other
actions except to rally in the end phase (see 1.14.1).

Once the units being transported have mounted up, the war
engine can move off with them inside as part of one of its own
actions in a subsequent turn.


So it seems that once you drop them off, you can do the double move, but not if the units remount onto the war engine.

I know there is a separate set of rules and circumstance for Bomber war engine transports such as the Thunderhawk gunship and the Slavebringer, however, I believe that you can not pick up a formation from the bomber WE in the same turn you deposit it, and people get around this by using a second slavebringer.

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 Post subject: Re: Legal sequence during a double action??
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 12:29 pm 
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Thanks.

But theres a diffeence between a AC WE and a support craft no? I know AC WE:s can't fly off the table the same turn a formation dismounts and mounts into them.

But the support craft is staying on the table...

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 Post subject: Re: Legal sequence during a double action??
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 12:45 pm 
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An AC WE can't disengage when a formation uses its consolidation to board it. That's any formation, not just the one that began the turn in the AC.

On the original question, the WE rules were written before Hit & Run so it's not surprising that they don't cover this edge case. I wouldn't have a problem with the situation described, and as far as I can tell by re-reading 3.1.3 it's allowed. The SC is in mid-activation, the rules only prevent you from activating it after the embark. Plus they're all one formation during the SC's activation anyway, so the WE picking up another formation rules don't apply.

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 Post subject: Re: Legal sequence during a double action??
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 12:55 pm 
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Correct. Support craft War Engines, once they have arrived via self planetfall or planetfall (providing they have the rule) - some do not have the rule such as Overlord armoured airships. are treated just like any ground based support craft. This means they are treated like a Skimmer which is permanently popped-up.

So the rule previously C&P 3.3.1 still comes into play. When a War engine has units mount onto it, then the War engine can not take any more actions, even if it has not been activated that turn.

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 Post subject: Re: Legal sequence during a double action??
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 4:21 pm 
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Thanks Deb and dave.

I would like to hear more poinions on this one. Especially from seasoned players like Dave. Any of the EpicUK guys that can chip in?

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 Post subject: Re: Legal sequence during a double action??
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 4:43 pm 
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It looks like a pefectly legal move to me although totally broken and op

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 Post subject: Re: Legal sequence during a double action??
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 5:46 pm 
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mordoten wrote:
Need help to see if a tactic is legal:

I activate the Executioner for a double action and all then units inside disembark in B2B contact with the Executioner and then fires as 1 unit. All 4 formations then embark again and then the executioner does it's double move away to safety (from some attacks anyway since its always popped up from being a support craft).

Is thiis a legal action sequence? Remember I'm using the "hit and run" eldar special rule that lets me fire when ever during the doule move. But can i do the disembark->shoot->embark->move->move sequence?

This is the EpicUK Dark eldar list I'm using...

Not quite legal , when the 4 formations dismount that is the end of the first move as all 5 formations are treat as 1 formation (they cannot dismount for free as they could with planetall) and units dismount at the end of a move.
from 3.1.3
Quote:
It can dismount the transported units at the end of a move in the same way as a normal transport vehicle (ie, the units are placed within 5cms of the transport at the end of a move)


Also 1.7.5 states units cannot mount and dismount as part of the same move.

To do as you stated above you would need to take a double action .
Use 1st move action to move executioner (does not matter if it actually moves ) plus dismount units and all fire at -1 .2nd move to mount base contact units back aboard and "single" move away.


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 Post subject: Re: Legal sequence during a double action??
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 7:02 pm 
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I believe he is doubling to do this.

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 Post subject: Re: Legal sequence during a double action??
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 7:19 pm 
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Yes, that is correct. I'm doubling to do this.

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 Post subject: Re: Legal sequence during a double action??
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 8:20 pm 
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I would say you can only make one move away, since the rules clearly states that you can't embark and disembark in the same move, and the disembark and shooting is part of the first move.


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 Post subject: Re: Legal sequence during a double action??
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 10:11 pm 
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mordoten wrote:
Yes, that is correct. I'm doubling to do this.


Yes, I know you had stated that you were doubling, I was trying to walk you through how it would work if you wanted to do it in a game.

you cannot do what you stated,
dismount and shoot then move and move again.

for it to be legal you would have to,
move (to allow disembarking) and then shoot and then move again (to re-embark).

hope this helps.


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 Post subject: Re: Legal sequence during a double action??
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 10:51 pm 
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Yes that helps!

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 Post subject: Re: Legal sequence during a double action??
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 12:08 am 
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Yep that was my issue too - nothing wrong with disembarking and embarking during a double, but not at the beginning of the action. You can only disembark at the end of a move, embark at the beginning of one, and each move can only do one or the other.

And also note that it is the transport that is doing the moving. Normally you cannot actually use the transported formation's move to embark, this is a WE specific rule. I suppose you could read the WE transport rules in such a way that you could:
1. roll to double
2. move the WE
3. disembark the contents within 5cm
4. shoot
5. use the transported unit's own move to get back into the WE
6. move the WE

As technically the WE is mid-action, you might say 'unable to take an action later in the turn' doesn't prevent it from making the second move. At the end of the day it's only going to get you 5cm though. I'm also not convinced you can use the 'normal' transport rules and the WE transport rules at the same time.

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 Post subject: Re: Legal sequence during a double action??
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 12:12 am 
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Ah, I missed the disembark at the start of the action. I was wondering what I was missing.

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