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Question: Black Legion (etc.) and sacrifice -rule

 Post subject: Question: Black Legion (etc.) and sacrifice -rule
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:43 pm 
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As this question never got finally answered (and possibly written to rules) last year, here it is again:

Can this power be used after summoning roll or must it be used beforehand?

Quote:
Sacrifice
A unit with a Champion of Chaos character may be sacrificed to generate 6 summoning points to summon a Greater Daemon. The Greater Daemon must be placed within 10cm of the unit with the Champion of Chaos, which is then removed from play.


(currently written rules do not state. Our ruling was last year that it could be used after the roll. Both - before or after the roll - work fluffywise ;) and if need to be used beforehand, seems a bit weak power)


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 Post subject: Re: Question: Black Legion (etc.) and sacrifice -rule
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:50 pm 
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I believe the intention was it was before the roll.

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 Post subject: Re: Question: Black Legion (etc.) and sacrifice -rule
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:53 pm 
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in the EpicUK codex (I know it's not officially official like) the text is thus: (emphasis mine)

Quote:
before rolling its formations summoning points this unit’s Augment Summoning (2D3) ability is changed to Augment
Summoning (6). After this roll the Champion unit is destroyed with no saves allowed.


As Steve54's stated aim is to align the EpicUK and NetEA Black Legion lists as closely as possible, I would assume that this is also the intent for the NetEA summoning rules, it stops the 'I'll have a go, oh I didn't roll enough to summon the bloodthirster, I'll sacrifice him instead' approach

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 Post subject: Re: Question: Black Legion (etc.) and sacrifice -rule
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:18 pm 
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Well, the UK version is at least clear (although might add that it does not generate BM...)

..but weak. I'm uncertain that GD is worth 150+ points with all limitations it has. But that is another discussion =]


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 Post subject: Re: Question: Black Legion (etc.) and sacrifice -rule
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:01 pm 
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I assumed for EpicUK it did cause a BM - not that I have ever payed with or against a GD

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 Post subject: Re: Question: Black Legion (etc.) and sacrifice -rule
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:53 pm 
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MikeT wrote:
from core rules: "In addition, a formation receives one Blast marker every time a unit is destroyed, unless the rules specifically state otherwise"

and explicit excpetion for dangerous terrain:

"Roll a D6 when you enter dangerous terrain, or when you start to move if already in dangerous terrain. On a roll of 1, the unit is destroyed with no save allowed, but the formation it is part of does not receive a Blast marker."

so, per all the above, using the sacrifice option should cause a blast marker


I agree with the above

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 Post subject: Re: Question: Black Legion (etc.) and sacrifice -rule
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:15 pm 
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As written currently, it appears that a formation containing a Champion can generate 2D3 summoning points normally, an extra 2D3 summoning points from augmented summoning, then sacrifice the champion for a further 6 summoning points, meaning 4d3+6 summoning points, or 10 to 18 points.

I believe the intention with sacrifice was to allow a one time summoning points pool of 8 to 12; guaranteeing the ability to summon a Greater daemon at least once.

Also, a Greater daemon is 50 pts, has Deamonic Focus so won't disappear at the end of the turn, is a 3DC 4+RA war engine with built in inspiring and all have extra engagement attacks. Having to sacrifice the champion and the stand of CSM he's on is still leaves the GD as a real bargain.


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 Post subject: Re: Question: Black Legion (etc.) and sacrifice -rule
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:21 pm 
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Fixed the sacrifice difference. I'm working under the assumption that Steve54 wants both NetEA and EUK lists the same.

viewtopic.php?p=613908#p613908

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 Post subject: Re: Question: Black Legion (etc.) and sacrifice -rule
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:59 am 
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Just a quiry. How often does a greater deamon get summoned in Uk tournaments.

Ive been running a GD and you pretty much have to make your formation undevided to make it worth the points. 100 points to summon the GD for the champ and the GD.

I was playing it 4d3 +6 to summon a uber formation. Beasts for 1 point flamers for 2 and 8 for the greater usually a blood thirster when i needed it.

Was it tested the 4d3 + 6 or 2d3 + 6 way when it was written by all groups?

Just dont understand the straight away change and if it was OP the way it was written before?

Most of the time i had one up and about they were good for one turn and usually broken and all disappeared.


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 Post subject: Re: Question: Black Legion (etc.) and sacrifice -rule
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:24 pm 
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I don't think 4d3+6 was ever tested. Back in 2012/13 the sacrifice rule was added to allow for the a GD as a definite. You get the 6 from the sacrifice, and even if you botch the 2d3 you still get him.

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 Post subject: Re: Question: Black Legion (etc.) and sacrifice -rule
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:11 pm 
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Norto wrote:
Just a quiry. How often does a greater deamon get summoned in Uk tournaments.


Tiny-Tim and MephistonAG both regularly make use of greater daemons in their Black Legion lists at UK tournaments, both are good players, Tim in particular has an 11-3-5 record (W/L/D) with black legion

I have faced GDs in quite a few games and I think even with sacrificing the champion, 100pts for a DC3 war engine with a bunch of assault power is a pretty good deal :)

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 Post subject: Re: Question: Black Legion (etc.) and sacrifice -rule
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:18 pm 
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(but it is never 100pts, it is 50+50+cost of the stand, plus 2 summoning points, so 150 is closer)


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 Post subject: Re: Question: Black Legion (etc.) and sacrifice -rule
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:31 pm 
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There's also Daemonic Pact, so more like 175. Even so, I'd pay 175 for a GD to start on my baseline. The ability to summon the unit when and where it's needed is even better though.

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