Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 

Kreig. They are broken.(or rules questions about Gorgons)

 Post subject: Kreig. They are broken.(or rules questions about Gorgons)
PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:28 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:25 pm
Posts: 89
For me to hate a list, it must be worse than necrons...

Ok enough whining.

We were playing last week, and I had the opportunity to prep two loaded Gorgons and assault.
So far so good.
There was a bit of a gap between the gorgons, and having lots of spare activation, I cunningly shot at the gorgons with scouts from 10cm on the right flank, then was going to assault the other Gorgon from 12cm to the left. So that way only Gorgon one would be inside FF, and gorgon two (the right most) would have to either stay still or counter charge the near by scouts.
So here began the first argument.
The guardsmen of Gorgon two 'disembarked' not counter charged, 'disembarked', this meant they could take their 5cm move to the Left and bring themselves into FF.
Worse was to come,
The Left most Gorgon, who would be blocking some of these disembarked troops, then counter charged 5cm towards the assaulter, and so stopped blocking the FF of the guardsmen.
Then the guardsmen in that got out.
So we had a question there. Does disembark all happen at once, or can it happen at different times as above, AND can units disembark in the opposite direction form the nearest unit.
- sadly i think the answer to both is how we played it. But I am sure you appreciate why I was raging.

This got worse.
Having lost the assault, the guardsmen all got back in the Gorgons.
Trying something different, I air assaulted with a squad of bikes and Thunderhawks, trapping the units in the left most Gorgon. The guardsmen got out of the right Gorgon and we thought the assault. It was a draw. But as I had lost a bike, I no longer had the left goron pinned.
So the guardsmen got out, and I was toast in the next round.
So two issues here, between assault rounds can units disembark.
Can units disembark and walk past / over units in close combat? - in this case the guardsmen sat to the left of the bikes that were next to the gorgon, it just seemed weird.
And, AGAIN, they don't need to enter base contact as its a disembark and not a counter charge?....

Finally, and really at the end of my tether, I air assaulted with terminators (yup, it was a pretty crazy list I was also running).
One of the Gorgons had by then taken a hit.
This time my opponent had left the guardsmen out of the vehicles, so I put a terminator into each of four guardsmen, ...but.. the gorgons counter charged also putting themselves into close combat.
I scored three normal and two macro hits. One of the gorgons had already suffered a wound and my opponent was loath to lose one. So he separated the hits as follows, three normal's into the first gorgon, then two macros into guardsmen.
My understanding is that all normal get resolved, then all macros get allocated and that the player chooses where the front is.... but, can the front move. In other words if the gorgon was the front for the normal hits, surely it would also be front for the macros? (If I had been guard i would have happily had them into the gorgons anyways). - but do want to clarify this.

Thanks for your thoughts.

p.s look how dreadful and expensive plague towers are. even Orky-o-sarus' can't easily trebbile and don't get to be fearless with a commissar! this list is way too good!! Please NERF. (but only after Copenhagen :) )


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Kreig. They are broken.(or rules questions about Gorgons
PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:31 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:25 pm
Posts: 89
Found one answer (enough for me to claim a miss-trial... I mean draw)

Can a unit that disembarked other units still counter-charge?
No, disembarking happens at the end of a move.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Kreig. They are broken.(or rules questions about Gorgons
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:27 am 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:00 pm
Posts: 788
Location: Toronto
Don't be dragging the good name of Necrons into this :o

_________________
Necron AC (click to see current Necron list threads)
Toronto Wargaming Group


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Kreig. They are broken.(or rules questions about Gorgons
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:38 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:03 pm
Posts: 5782
Location: Leicester UK
Dan 1314 wrote:
For me to hate a list, it must be worse than necrons...

Ok enough whining.

We were playing last week, and I had the opportunity to prep two loaded Gorgons and assault.
So far so good.
There was a bit of a gap between the gorgons, and having lots of spare activation, I cunningly shot at the gorgons with scouts from 10cm on the right flank, then was going to assault the other Gorgon from 12cm to the left. So that way only Gorgon one would be inside FF, and gorgon two (the right most) would have to either stay still or counter charge the near by scouts.
So here began the first argument.
The guardsmen of Gorgon two 'disembarked' not counter charged, 'disembarked', this meant they could take their 5cm move to the Left and bring themselves into FF.
Worse was to come,
The Left most Gorgon, who would be blocking some of these disembarked troops, then counter charged 5cm towards the assaulter, and so stopped blocking the FF of the guardsmen.
Then the guardsmen in that got out.
So we had a question there. Does disembark all happen at once, or can it happen at different times as above, AND can units disembark in the opposite direction form the nearest unit.
- sadly i think the answer to both is how we played it. But I am sure you appreciate why I was raging.


yes, this is correct, the troops may disembark wherever they like

Quote:
So two issues here, between assault rounds can units disembark.


Yes, it's basically a whole second counter charge

Quote:
Can units disembark and walk past / over units in close combat? - in this case the guardsmen sat to the left of the bikes that were next to the gorgon, it just seemed weird.


provided the enemy units have sufficient units to negate their ZoC, yes

Quote:
And, AGAIN, they don't need to enter base contact as its a disembark and not a counter charge?....


Yes

Quote:
Finally, and really at the end of my tether, I air assaulted with terminators (yup, it was a pretty crazy list I was also running).
One of the Gorgons had by then taken a hit.
This time my opponent had left the guardsmen out of the vehicles, so I put a terminator into each of four guardsmen, ...but.. the gorgons counter charged also putting themselves into close combat.
I scored three normal and two macro hits. One of the gorgons had already suffered a wound and my opponent was loath to lose one. So he separated the hits as follows, three normal's into the first gorgon, then two macros into guardsmen.
My understanding is that all normal get resolved, then all macros get allocated and that the player chooses where the front is.... but, can the front move. In other words if the gorgon was the front for the normal hits, surely it would also be front for the macros? (If I had been guard i would have happily had them into the gorgons anyways). - but do want to clarify this.


unfortunately your opponent could do this, same as an ork player with grotz, if they are all in BTB then they are all equally close targets, you effectively have two pools of dice to assign, and as they are all at range zero, there is no 'closest to furthest' like there is with shooting

in your example with the terminators, you could have been cheesy, and put the stands in BTB with two guardsmen stands each, this way the gorgon would not be permitted to BTB your terminator units as they already have 2 units in BTB

Quote:
p.s look how dreadful and expensive plague towers are. even Orky-o-sarus' can't easily trebbile and don't get to be fearless with a commissar! this list is way too good!! Please NERF. (but only after Copenhagen :) )


Plague towers are awesome, for the loss in speed you gain a heck of a lot of firepower, and orkeosaurus get to carry a MW AA wyrdboy around so they have their own nasty tricks ;) I do agree that Krieg are overpowered at present and the stats back that up (2 UK tournament wins this year and a 12% loss rate is pretty damn good) I have heard on the grapevine that EUK are considering options to balance the list....

_________________
Adeptus Astartes Army Champion, also AC for Imperial Fists and Red Corsairs

various hobby/painting threads: full of 6mm goodness

Army Forge List Co-ordinator (netEA+EpicUK)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Kreig. They are broken.(or rules questions about Gorgons
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:26 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2011 3:04 pm
Posts: 2514
12%? Wow. Not a very good quality rating, that.

_________________
My not so fast orky project log
Nitpicks KnapsackNurgle cult, Terrain, and the nostalgia of Crimson Fists


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Kreig. They are broken.(or rules questions about Gorgons
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:52 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:23 pm
Posts: 267
Location: Newcastle, UK
I have to admit that my win ratio with Krieg is a lot higher than with Steel Legion and I'm no good with either. It'll be interesting to see what they do if they do anything


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Kreig. They are broken.(or rules questions about Gorgons)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:12 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:01 pm
Posts: 1140
I'm not sure epic UK Krieg need another nerf. There's no doubt they're top tier but one army has to have the most powerful assault unit in the game and hey that's Krieg. In addition, they're run almost exclusively by people like Richard and Mike so seem even scarier.

They have plenty of weaknesses (ie speed, activations, etc) - also Dan were you running the half dozen thunderbrick list into them? If yes, you've taken a skewlist and got a terrible match up. That's what happens with skewlists.

My record against epic UK Krieg is actually better than my record with them - there's definitely counter plays and rough match ups for them.

As one of the Krieg tournie winners this year, my success was heavily influenced by them basically being amazing on the special mission run in Exeter and rolling bucket loads of 6s against Richard in the final game so read into that what you will.

As for the hit allocation thing. Plenty of armies can do this (Orks, nids, TK sons with daeomons, squats with warlords, etc etc). IMO tyranids actually do this way better than Krieg. 20 hits in cc, well I'll take them all on my 20 gants. Not even the risk of a failed armour save or crit. Plus no BMs or combat res.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Kreig. They are broken.(or rules questions about Gorgons
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:29 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:43 pm
Posts: 2226
Location: UK
One interesting combination of rules that you might potentially argue about in your first example is the combination of the disembark, counter charge and charge rules:

1.7.5 Transport vehicles
Transported units may disembark at the end of any move after the move in which is it was picked up. ... Units may embark or disembark as part of a counter-charge move (see 1.12.4). ...

1.12.3 Make charge move
... A charging unit that enters a zone of control must move into base contact with the nearest enemy whose zone of control has been entered. ...

1.12.4 Counter-charges
... All the normal charge move rules apply ... Units can choose not to counter charge if they wish, but if they do counter charge they must head towards the nearest enemy. ...

So:
a) Disembarking can only be done at the end of the counter-charge move, which means one must first counter-charge, even if that counter-charge is 0cm.
b) If a unit counter-charges, it must go in the direction of the nearest enemy.
c) If a unit enters a ZoC it must move into base contact

If the gorgon uses its counter-charge in order to be able to then disembark, and is in ZoC of the scouts, one might argue that it must use its full move to attempt to base the scouts before the guardsmen are allowed to disembark. The guardsmen don't have to disembark towards the scouts, but they'd be further away at this point. The contentious point is enters. The gorgon technically didn't 'enter' the scout ZoC itself, but the FAQ on options for finding oneself in a ZoC doesn't help fully. Normally the unit would have the option to leave the ZoC, but 1.12.4 is clear that this is not an option - you must move towards the enemy, not away from it outside its ZoC.

_________________
Kyrt's Battle Result Tracker (forum post is here)
Kyrt's trade list


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Kreig. They are broken.(or rules questions about Gorgons
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:42 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:43 pm
Posts: 2226
Location: UK
There's also another curiosity in the 1.7.5 RAW (that personally I probably would not enforce):

1.7.5 Transport vehicles
... If the formation has engage orders then they may be placed in base contact with an enemy unit. Otherwise they may not be placed within an enemy unit’s zone of control. ...

So you're not allowed to disembark into a ZoC (i.e. an uncontacted unit) without contacting it. I don't think this is typically enforced - I've seen plenty of people disembark infantry to the front of their transports, inside the ZoC of their target without basing them. It would be quite restrictive when firefighting scouts, as you'd have only a narrow band 10-15cm in which to place your units without being forced to CC them.

_________________
Kyrt's Battle Result Tracker (forum post is here)
Kyrt's trade list


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net