One of my main issues with the Death Guard list is it's reliance on Rhinos. Hena has said that originally they weren't an option but people complained that the formations were unusable without them.. As far as I'm concerned there is no such thing as a unusable formation, just a overpointed one. This suggests that though a CSM formation with Rhinos is about right. One without them is too expensive..

So One Chaos Space Marine Lord character upgrade, eight Chaos Space Marines units and 4 Rhinos costs 315 points.. Where do you think the split in worth comes.. ie when would fielding with Rhinos and fielding without Rhinos be a coin flip, rather than being automatic.

(note considerations of Obliterators, which would be the main reason not to take them, should not be brought into this as DG lists can't have them)

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Are you aware only the first option adds to 315pt? Options 2-4 add to 305pt.

As to the poll, I don't play with or against DG/Chaos enough to have a real opinion.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

ta had a brain fart.

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But DG don't get the 8 Chaos Marines + Lord combination which you are mathing out, either.

There's also other things to take into account. Access to other transport options, in particular DreadClaws, but not dismissing Land Raiders, which with your last option, would be very hard to pass up.

The final consideration are other internal issues. I have no issue with Red Corsairs Marines (identical to BL ones in initial composition), costing 275. Because adding Havoks/Cult Marines, for example, isn't a large point suck. These, on overwatch, or garrisoning, don't need transports to be effective.

I wouldn't want my entire army moving base 15cm, but I'm not averse to having more than a couple formations at that speed. Heck, Mechanized Formations are the ones I target with AT weaponry first, most of the time. One (typically easy) kill, and the formation slows.

There's just too many variables, known and unknown, for me to make an informed decision here. Can you expand on exactly what you're after?

Morgan Vening

Deathclaws are not an option in the basic DG formation, you have to take a Support formation to use them.

What I'm wanting to know is could you alter the points on the basic DG formation so that it's preferable to field them on foot even if they keep Rhinos as an option.

ie.. lower the points or increase the size of the original formation, but increase the points of the Rhino upgrade.

I used CSM as a base line as people would be more familiar with using them.

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Just the Death Guard Retinue (3 DGMarine/3 Plague Marine)? Or the Havok formation as well? We're talking about Death Guard 2.2, right?

I could probably go a 25pt drop, for a comparative increase in the Rhino's cost. Which would help iron out my problem with DGRhinos costing the same as a Chaos Rhino, but having a 4+ armour. So, drop the Marines to 225, and have the Rhinos at 20pts each. Old cost 250 + 30 = 280. New cost 225 + 60 = 285. Back end loading the extra cost, rather than having it up front.

Going any cheaper, I think, would make for some fairly problematic "I start with a bucket of formations forward, on Garrison. Blaaah!".

EDIT- On a side note, I think the Drop Retinue should have the cost of the Dreadclaws included (so ~300pts). Seems weird to have it as an 'option'. Or, give it other transport options, because without Drop, it's kind of a waste.

Just some thoughts.

Morgan Vening

I think the basic DG Formation needs to cost more anyhow (at the moment you can create a 14 activation DG/Zombie army)... that would involve increasing it's size.. but at the moment, you can spam the hell out of them at 250. I was thinking something like 350 for 6/4 then +100 for 5 rhinos. Which would include the backloading of Rhino Cost and stop the DG retinues being spammed. You would probably have to do somthing similar with the Havocs so you don't have 2 different costs for Rhinos in the list.

Agree with you on the Drop Retinue MV

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Using Hena's Death Guard List 2.2

I actually see the Death Guard coming in at 275 points.

@250 points you can have 12 units in a 3000 point force starting on garrison with 3x 45cm shots each.

Here is how I see the points:

-Plague Marines are 4 for 150 so that is 37 points each
-Death Guard Marines with Indomitable & AR+1 are almost comparable to Tactical Space Marines and I price them similar as above (38 points)
-Add in a Death Guard Lord - 50 points
There you have it: 275 points

With 3x Rhino that brings them to 305 points (10 points less than what you are suggesting)

It is not so much the transport issue that I see as the issue, but rather the impact cheaper 45cm shooting units will have on list creation for this army. At present I cringe at the 250 points. If they were a formation of 7 (sacred number) for 275 points I would not have an issue. At that point, this formation of AR3+ units could transport for 315 points which would seem about right for me - although bringing it to 325 points (Rhino = 50 points for 4) would be perfect.

When the black Legion and LatD list are frozen, the other cult lists will be put forward and we can all compare at that point.

- Currently the World Eaters (8 unit formation + lord - no shooting) is sitting at 275 points
- Still to be nutted out, the Emperor's Children I have at 275 points for 6 men + lord (due to their shooting ability)

It will no doubt be discussed and comparred, but having Death Guard hit the 275 point mark would bring consistency throughout the lists. If that means giving them another unit to bring them up to the sacred number (and thereby a small discount), then so be it.

So after all this, I cannot vote till we see all the lists presented in June.

Hena

Are you open at all to bringing the base formation up to 7 units for 275 points at all?

So a rhino slot spare? Bit gamey in truth.

Are you serious? There are a few lists that have an extra slot here or there. How would this be different?

I daresay the use of 'gamey' is being used on a stretch...

How about the fact that the current base unit is under priced?

I showed it above. Is there an addition that shows a different outcome towards 250 points instead of 275?

As stated previously, whether it is 6 or 7 @ 275 points makes little to no difference. It also has the benefit of sticking to fluff keeping the number to 7.