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Rules Clarifications - LOS
Morgan Vening
 Post subject: Rules Clarifications - LOS
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:47 am 
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We had a discussion in a recent game about Line of Sight, and how it is calculated. I've since gone back through the book, and I'm a little unsure of exactly how it's worded, and some of the concepts seem to be, quite frankly, ludicrous, as written.

The line of fire is a straight line drawn from the shooting unit to one unit in the target formation.


a weapon is in range if any bit of the
attacking weapon is within range of any part of
the target model
This part just makes me laugh. If a unit is 29.5cm away from a Gargant's Belly Gun, the Gaze of Mork can't fire but the Belly Gun can? Given the abstraction throughout the game, why was this written this way?

The two aspects (range and LOS) are written separately. Should it be assumed that both aspects work the same? Because there is no clarification for where LOS is traced from/to, just range.

Do you truly measure from the weapon tip of each weapon and have LOS blocked or not blocked in a yes/no fashion? Or do you trace LOS from centre mass to centre mass, but count range from weapon tip to any part of target? Or do you trace LOS and range from any part of the firer to any part of the target?

Would the same results apply to War Machines? A single Marine Land Speeder directly in front of a Shadowsword could only fire it's Volcano Cannon? (Width of the LandSpeeder being less than the width between the Heavy Bolters)

Also, similarly, a Warlord Titan. Each weapon arc based from where the weapon is modeled?

Seems a lot of needless accuracy for the very abstracted system that is EA.

Morgan Vening

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asaura
 Post subject: Rules Clarifications - LOS
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:44 am 
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We've played by those rules, measuring from weapon in case of big models and measuring from base in case of based infantry.
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Ginger
 Post subject: Rules Clarifications - LOS
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:31 pm 
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I have a feeling that this might be a hang-over from earlier versions of EPIC, though as the others say, I have never met anyone that actually measures from the weapon. However, you should note the distinction between infantry, Vehicles and War Engines all of which are still "Units" but which are affected slightly differently.

Where you take measurements from is one of the topics that should be covered in the 5 min warm up, along with how the various bits of terrain affect Line of Sight. For example, I have known people accept that if a Titan can see over the terrain, then it can shoot and be shot at. An extension of that is whether you can draw a line between the weapons the Titan carries and the target etc. It is very much a case of Do What Works For You (DWWFY).

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zombocom
 Post subject: Rules Clarifications - LOS
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:49 pm 
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I've never played against anyone who actually uses those rules. I measure from anywhere on the model.

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frogbear
 Post subject: Rules Clarifications - LOS
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 10:39 am 
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a weapon is in range if any bit of the
attacking weapon is within range of any part of
the target model


I could not help myself..I only have 15cm range.


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McMullet
 Post subject: Rules Clarifications - LOS
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 11:51 am 
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Quote: (frogbear @ 26 May 2009, 10:39 )


Sweet conversion!

Like pretty much everyone here, I've always measured either from the base or, in the absence of the latter, from any part of the model. Not only is it simpler to do so, in many case it's the only option as a lot of units are not strictly WYSIWYG in my army - How can my Ork Landa have D6+3 gun turrets? Gunfortresses supposedly have 5 twin-linked big shootas, but most of the standard models don't have any twin-linked big shootas, so measuring range/LoS from them is impractical.

I did toy with suggesting the use of WYSIWYG terrain for Titans/Gargants, but ultimately base-to-base and defined area terrain is much easier.

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Mephiston
 Post subject: Rules Clarifications - LOS
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 11:54 am 
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My general gut reaction is to measure from the centre of my model to touch the target model. But as Ginger and others have said cover this in the 5 min warm up discussions.
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nealhunt
 Post subject: Rules Clarifications - LOS
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 3:26 pm 
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Quote: (Morgan Vening @ 12 Mar. 2009, 05:47 )

We had a discussion in a recent game about Line of Sight, and how it is calculated. I've since gone back through the book, and I'm a little unsure of exactly how it's worded, and some of the concepts seem to be, quite frankly, ludicrous, as written.

The line of fire is a straight line drawn from the shooting unit to one unit in the target formation.


a weapon is in range if any bit of the
attacking weapon is within range of any part of
the target model

This part just makes me laugh. If a unit is 29.5cm away from a Gargant's Belly Gun, the Gaze of Mork can't fire but the Belly Gun can? Given the abstraction throughout the game, why was this written this way?
It's just an arbitrary rule.  Center of mass or model edge-to-edge would have worked just as well.

It's a bit wonky, but on the rare occasions when there is question of range, everyone I know asks their opponent to concur.  If it's that close, it's hardly a burden to shift the tape a few millimeters to check the other weapon and splitting weapons in/out when it's that close doesn't exactly seem like an unfair compromise to me.

Do you truly measure from the weapon tip of each weapon and have LOS blocked or not blocked in a yes/no fashion? Or do you trace LOS from centre mass to centre mass, but count range from weapon tip to any part of target? Or do you trace LOS and range from any part of the firer to any part of the target?

RAW would be the second one: "trace LOS from centre mass to centre mass, but count range from weapon tip to any part of target"

Line of sight is not yes/no.  It's yes/cover/no.

Seems a lot of needless accuracy for the very abstracted system that is EA.

I'd say edge-to-edge would have been more in keeping with the spirit of the rules, but I've never seen weapon-to-edge cause any appreciable heartburn in actual play.

I would say that checking both from weapon-to-model would be bad.  You could have some weapons firing with clear LoS, some with cover, and some without LoS as well as having some in or out of range.  After all the questions the "choose targets in/out of cover" option causes, I expect that breaking it up by weapon LoS would be worse.

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