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Question regarding assault
Dave
 Post subject: Question regarding assault
PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:24 pm 
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I would say yes to at least one LOS, it seems silly to be able to engage a formation on the other side of an impenetrable barrier that's less than 15cm in length.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Question regarding assault
PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:11 pm 
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That is odd.  I assumed that the "stall" rules in the Errata for 1.12 would cover that, but it's also based on range.

RAW, I'd have to say the attack goes forward.  I'd have serious qualms about anyone who tried that.  If I were working as a judge at a tourney, I would recommend they find a non-cheesy action to take instead but it appears legal.

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Irisado
 Post subject: Question regarding assault
PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:10 pm 
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That is bizarre.

I agree that it wouldn't make sense for an assault to take place if no units had LOS to each other, it would just be plain silly.  If there is a huge building between the unit in question, or an area of thick woodland, for example, there is just no way I would even dream about claiming to be in a position to be able to assault.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Question regarding assault
PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:19 pm 
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Well lets see.
You are behind some obstacle which blocks LOS. But you hear lots of noise which could be only a BIG enemy horde which approaches you.
Well it is possible that you crap youselfe in the pants and run for your life.

So on the board it seems odd but from a real-life standpoint it looks sensible.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Question regarding assault
PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:13 pm 
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Looks like a bit of an oversight... and it's actually quite surprising it's never come up!  *laugh*

It would even allow supporting fire from nearby formations...   :O

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Question regarding assault
PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:29 am 
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Quote: (nealhunt @ 03 Oct. 2008, 07:11 )

That is odd.

Very odd since the rules at one point specifically did require LOS as we discussed it based on some games we had here locally and the Assault rules were amended based on that.

Not sure how/when it got removed.

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Irisado
 Post subject: Question regarding assault
PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:07 pm 
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Quote: (BlackLegion @ 03 Oct. 2008, 21:19 )

Well lets see.
You are behind some obstacle which blocks LOS. But you hear lots of noise which could be only a BIG enemy horde which approaches you.
Well it is possible that you crap youselfe in the pants and run for your life.

So on the board it seems odd but from a real-life standpoint it looks sensible.

Some troops make little or no noise as they approach the enemy though, e.g. Eldar Rangers, so I'm not sure that it's always the case from a 'real life' perspective either.  Obviously, you would hear a horde of Orks from miles away, but more stealthy troops could easily sneak up on you.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Question regarding assault
PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:17 pm 
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Well, support fire requires a "line of fire" to be usable, even if within 15cm of a target unit...

That seems to be glaringly missing from the initial assault rules, and I think it should be included.

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dptdexys
 Post subject: Question regarding assault
PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 8:16 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 03 Oct. 2008, 22:13 )

It would even allow supporting fire from nearby formations...   :O

Supporting formations can only target units that are "directly involved" in the assault.
Under the conditions of the stated assault none of the defenders would actually be "directly involved" due to LOS.
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Chroma
 Post subject: Question regarding assault
PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:26 pm 
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Quote: (dptdexys @ 04 Oct. 2008, 20:16 )

Under the conditions of the stated assault none of the defenders would actually be "directly involved" due to LOS.

My oh my... it gets pretty convoluted there, now that I've re-read it in the errata:

Support fire wouldn't be allowed against the enemy, attacker or defender, as *none* of them are "directly involved" in the assault, since none are actually "in a position to attack", because that requires being in base contact or being within 15cm *AND* having a line of fire to an enemy unit, despite being "directly engaged", within 15cm of a defending unit after charge and counter-charge moves have been completed.

So, no attacks are made, and assault resolution is just based on other modifiers...  I *really* don't think that was intended, and the "line of fire" condition should probably be included in standard assaults as it is in support fire.

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Irisado
 Post subject: Question regarding assault
PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:07 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 04 Oct. 2008, 21:26 )

Quote: (dptdexys @ 04 Oct. 2008, 20:16 )

Under the conditions of the stated assault none of the defenders would actually be "directly involved" due to LOS.

My oh my... it gets pretty convoluted there, now that I've re-read it in the errata:

Support fire wouldn't be allowed against the enemy, attacker or defender, as *none* of them are "directly involved" in the assault, since none are actually "in a position to attack", because that requires being in base contact or being within 15cm *AND* having a line of fire to an enemy unit, despite being "directly engaged", within 15cm of a defending unit after charge and counter-charge moves have been completed.

So, no attacks are made, and assault resolution is just based on other modifiers...  I *really* don't think that was intended, and the "line of fire" condition should probably be included in standard assaults as it is in support fire.

I don't believe that this can have been the intention either, so adding the condition 'line of fire' seems the logical thing to do to me, although it should, in my view, be pretty clear that LOS is going to be needed for an assault to take place without it being explicitly stated in the rules.

While we're on this particular subject, and because my memory is failing me just at this moment in time, when you have formations which are actually in an assault, do units in base contact block the line of fire to other members of their formation who are using their FF value?  I do know the answer to this, I'm sure, but I just can't recall it at the moment.  Could somebody jog my memory?

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Chroma
 Post subject: Question regarding assault
PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:08 am 
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Quote: (Irisado @ 04 Oct. 2008, 23:07 )

While we're on this particular subject, and because my memory is failing me just at this moment in time, when you have formations which are actually in an assault, do units in base contact block the line of fire to other members of their formation who are using their FF value?  I do know the answer to this, I'm sure, but I just can't recall it at the moment.  Could somebody jog my memory?

Non-war engine models never block line of sight.

And, outside of war engines again, all hits in an assault are "pooled", and then applied front to back, starting with units in base contact.

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