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Organisation of Traitor Titan Legions
Kleomenes
 Post subject: Organisation of Traitor Titan Legions
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 4:24 pm 
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Hi all,

I am wondering on the views of anyone upon the organisation of traitor titan legions.

- Have they fractured as per the World Eaters, and so individual groups of titans can be found alongside various chaos marine groups (as per the titans appearing in the BL list) but there exists no higher organisation?

- Have some or most stayed together and still form recognisable "legions" and if so are they still supported by corrupted AM elements and do they have a chaos version of skitarii? And how indepdent/significant are they in the rabble of powers competing for dominance that are labelled as a group "The forces of chaos"

I think I have a reasonable command of 40k fluff but there are quite a few things I have missed out on, so I'd be happy to hear peoples views on this. Also, I am guessing there isnt actually a lot of information out there on this topic, given the other threads about specific traitor titan legions for the cult army lists (or lack thereof!), so I AM certainly interested in pure opinions/extrapolation as well as fact (well, fact as defined by GW fluff, heh).

Im particularly interested in the guys who are fixing/maintaining these beasts and to what extent they have just become large demon engines.

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Organisation of Traitor Titan Legions
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 5:34 pm 
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Do you want a 40K fluff answer or a realistic answer? :-)

Traitor Legions are problematic to begin with but the idea of these organizations being able to maintain Titans starts to stretch credulity a little bit. :-)

I think that the only thing that makes any sense in terms of the 40K fluff is that the Titans are largely Daemon Engines at this point and its only superstructure/ammo that needs attending to. So they wouldn't require the support system that the Imperial Titans do.

I'd also suspect that its only groups that are still organised along the lines of the Iron Warriors that could still field them.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Organisation of Traitor Titan Legions
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:41 pm 
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There is known to be at least one traitor ForgeWorld operating inside the Eye of Terror (The one that produces Chaos' atmospheric fighters and bombers), presumably the corrupt Mechanicai there are happy to maintain and produce traitor Titans and Daemon Engines.

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vanvlak
 Post subject: Organisation of Traitor Titan Legions
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 8:05 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jun. 10 2007,20:41)
QUOTE
There is known to be at least one traitor ForgeWorld operating inside the Eye of Terror (The one that produces Chaos' atmospheric fighters and bombers), presumably the corrupt Mechanicai there are happy to maintain and produce traitor Titans and Daemon Engines.

I've got a good contract going with these guys, see, that's why I'm overloaded with work, cleaning out a Nurgley warlord IS a pain. Takes all the cats to chase away the Nurglings......

In the old Adeptus Titanicus and later in Titan Legions there is mention of a number of Legios worth of titans which turned traitor. A force which can build the Planet Destroyer can do anything, and as E&C mentioned, the chaos-infested forgeworlds (Xana II, Malta...  :p ) would offer good support. The titans themselves are demon-infested, so they're demonic creatures. The Imperium cannot build titans any longer (sceptic  :p ), so presumably neither can Chaos - although they go one better and build the demon engines. Orks are one up, with nothing stopping them from swamping the Imperium and the Eye of Terror with Gargants - except for the mighty Fluff, which never permits them to do so.
Ramble, ramble, ramble.

Anyway, the way I see it is similar to E&Cs view, with the exception that new titans are not built. So no more 'new' Chaos titans unless further Imperial Legia turn traitor.

You can, of course, ignore the fluff and have the traitor legions still fully functional complete with support stuff such as titan transport spacecraft, titan recovery vehicles, and the rare but essential mobile titan-washer. oh no, why do I sense a new weird conversion coming up....  :(


:devil:

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Warmaster Nice
 Post subject: Organisation of Traitor Titan Legions
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:09 pm 
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Hmm... A titan wash... Now there's an interesting image... :D

Anyway: Yeah: The Titan Legions Codex Titanicus gives us names of various titan legions turned traitor. However there's no real indication werther these titans still fight as a single organization.

Personally I'd tend to think that the daemon engine titans would prety much have a will of their own and not really be the social kind of guys that hang out together. Like it is the case with the CSMs they'd probably join various marauding warbands or sometimes join larger armies or Black Crusades.

On the other hand there's no reason why some remains of the original Divisio Militaris command structure might not also have survived. Imagine a traitor legion: Some choose to stay with their old brothers in arms while others defect to join other factions. You'd then have fairly organized Traitor Titan Legions who might be supplied by Daemon Forge Worlds, and you might have freely marauding small groups of titans (Or single machines) attached to warbands or god specific cults.

So in short the diplomatic answer would be: There's probably examples of both. :D

I don't seem to recall ever hearing any specific numbers of Titan Legions in existence around the time of the Horus Heresy but supposedly about half of them defected to join the Warmaster. That should still leave room for some diversity 10000 years after I think (By GW logic anyway :;): )

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Organisation of Traitor Titan Legions
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:39 pm 
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The Imperium cannot build titans any longer


Although construction is now very slow, as far as I'm aware Titans can still be built.

Warhounds and Warlords are the most common new-build titans, while IIRC Reavers are not built any more or are only rarely built.

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Otterman
 Post subject: Organisation of Traitor Titan Legions
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:36 am 

(Evil and Chaos @ Jun. 10 2007,16:39)
QUOTE
The Imperium cannot build titans any longer

I can still build Titans. :D
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Yersinia Pestis
 Post subject: Organisation of Traitor Titan Legions
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:14 am 
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Oh, the Imperium can still build Titans, and do constantly, with just two catches.  They lack the capability to build the STC ones, which are the uber titans, the ones with full size fortresses in the torso, staircases and bunkers in the legs, and can reach the clouds themselves. (well mabye reach above low fog, we all know how the imperium likes to stretch the truth a smidgen) The second catch is that a Titan should take 10 years to build at the most, but due to the fanatical worship of technology, the prayers and belssings can make the time anywhere from 100 to 1000 years.




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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Organisation of Traitor Titan Legions
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:53 am 
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(Warmaster Nice @ Jun. 10 2007,14:09)
QUOTE
On the other hand there's no reason why some remains of the original Divisio Militaris command structure might not also have survived.

The rumour is that the latest Chaos Codex will focus on Renegades more than the traditional legions as the design team thinks they are a more "realistic".

It depends on what you want to do. I think that the beauty of the Eye of Terror is that you can really create any sort of situation in it that you want.

The 40K fluff is also filled with examples of Chaos taking over entire star systems and so there are also opportunities for Chaos forces to take over forge worlds in systems and use them to rebuild their forces.

Its not inconceivable that there are systems outside of the Eye of Terror that are and have been under Chaos control for centuries.

Its a big galaxy and there are more than enough opportunity for you to create a back story to match the situation that you want to have in your army

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Organisation of Traitor Titan Legions
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:21 am 
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Battlefleet Gothic also has background that the Idolator class Escorts were created on a Chaos Forgeworld within the Eye of Terror, and the Planetkiller could ONLY have been constructed there.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Organisation of Traitor Titan Legions
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:31 pm 
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AFAIK, there is no background written on titan legion organization as a broad topic.  There are a couple articles written about specific legions, but that's it.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Organisation of Traitor Titan Legions
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:29 pm 
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Yes, the whole Titan Legion subject very clouded. They mentioned in some detail them in AT1. But AFAIK, the "best ?" TO&E of TL is SM2/TL ... where they "loosely" had TLs with Tech Guard/Skatrii, and Ordinatus along with Titans of course IIRC ?  So that's what I based my ad hoc TL on ...

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Kleomenes
 Post subject: Organisation of Traitor Titan Legions
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:28 pm 
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Thanks for the replies guys - Sorry about the delay on my end, I've been offline for a few days.

I think this consensus is pretty much what I was expecting, IE there isnt much to go on, although the fact that there are Traitor/chaos forgeworlds is something I had not considered (and should have known, now I have gone down that line reading the BFG ship blubs has helped).

I think the answer of both is safest and likely also the most accurate to the potentials of the background and the spirit of chaos - anything goes!

The reason I am actually thinking about this is two fold:

1 - I am brainstorming a subsector level campaign system to combine BFG and Epic that uses epic army lists as the building blocks of its ground forces, and I wondered if the traitor titans should have their own counters or just be subsumed in traitor marine legions. With respect to this I think giving traitor titans their own organisational army list will work given the above, leading to.

2 - Whether to accomplish this a traitor version of AMTL would work, based off of AMTL itself with cultists and demon engines added and Knights and skitarii removed, something wierd added in (Chaos Squat models need a use - "Chaos Homunculi") and then some modellers delight war engines to replace ordinatii, death wheels and perhaps something else.

This is mostly for my personal pleasure, as I dont have any avid epic players in my region at the moment, although I am hoping to rejoin my old games club despite its distance soon.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Organisation of Traitor Titan Legions
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:43 pm 
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There is a little bit of org background in loyalist legions.  If you doa  search of the boards I'm sure you can dig up the details.  In a nutshell (iirc), a Legio is ~12-16 battle titans plus scout titans and support.  The largest Legio is ~100.  Demi- and Quatro-Legio are roughly 1/2 and 1/4, respectively.

There's just nothing on the traitor legions.

A Chaos TL list along the lines of what you described sounds like it would work just fine.

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Nicodemus
 Post subject: Organisation of Traitor Titan Legions
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:11 pm 
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I have a wague memory of Deaths Head (Legio Mortis) to turn chaos. And more precisely, Nurgle. Did Dies Irae turn Nurgle?

Anybody have "official" colorscheme to Chaos Legio Mortis? Any info on what would Dies Irae look like (apart from being Imperator Titan)? All info on Legio Mortis/Dies Irae is welcome! :)

(Next project: Legio Mortis)

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