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BatRep - Iyanden vs. Guard

 Post subject: BatRep - Iyanden vs. Guard
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:36 pm 
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Hi,

I played a 3000-point game today, against Imperial Guard.

Here are the army lists:

Imperial Guard

Infantry company
Infantry company
Infantry company + Fire support
SHT company (2 Shadowswords, 1 Baneblade)

Sentinels
Stormtroopers + Valkyries
Shadowsword

Warlord Titan
Thunderbolts

(10 commissaries)

Iyanden

Spirit Warhost + 6 Wave Serpents + Wraithseer
Spirit Warhost
Guardian Warhost

Aspect Warriors (Dire Avengers) + 2 Wave Serpents
Aspect Warriors (Swooping Hawks)
Nightspinners
Wraithlords

Revenant Titans
Vampire (for Spirit Warhost)

NOTE: No Wraithgate, simply because I had forgotten it at home :blush: and because my army list was worth 3050 points with the Wraithgate, so this put it at 3000.

This battle report will be short, as unfortunately I don't have much time. I'll try to concentrate on the strengths and weaknesses of the Iyanden army and not so much on what the IG did.

Turn 1:

I won the initiative, and immediatly assaulted the Stromtroopers with the Vampire + Spirit Warhost. I vaporised them, with no casualties on my side (thanks to RA). Only 1 Valkyrie and 1 Stormtrooper survived...
This formation was then assaulted by an Infantry company, lost the assault with only 1 casualty (RA again), killed 5 IG units and kept their ground (thanks to Fearless). I got lucky at the end of the turn, and they rallied (despite needing a 5+).
My Wraithlords got near an Infantry company in woods, were shot at by the SHT company, broke and got even closer to the Infantry company (thanks to Fearless). Me being a lucky #######,  :;): they of course rallied at the end of the turn (despire needing a 5+ too!).

Turn 2:

The Avatar and Hawks appeared... and didn't do much. Small AW formations are quite weak compared to their Biel-Tan equivalents.
The Warlord Titan destroyed 1 Revenant and left the other one with only 1 DC and no Holofield.
The Spirit Warhost in Wave Serpents, not knowing what to do due to a lack of targets, moved near the Warlord and removed most of its shields. They then tried to support the Hawks assaulting the Titan... but the Hawks were utterly destroyed before that, so no support. Bad move on my part.
The other Spirit Warhost finished off the Infantry company.

Turn 3:

I broke the Titan, and my opponent resolved to destroy my Spirit Warhost in WS to achieve the BTS goal. Despite firing at it with all of its remaining units (bar one), he only managed to break it (RA4+ AND Fearless helped me A LOT).
Note to self: do not try to assault an infantry company in ruins, even when it is broken... 4+ save vs. no saves for my Guardians = very dead Guardians.
End of turn: 0 - 0.

Turn 4:

We both realise that we don't have enough formations left to control more than one or two objectives... It's going to be a close call.
Again, my opponent tries his best to destroy my Spirit Warhost in WS. Again, he fails, although only 1 Wraithguard is still standing at the end of the turn.
My other Spirit Warhost assaults and destroys the lone Shadowsword, earning the title of Most Valuable Unit of the day (it destroyed 350 + 250 + 250 = 850 points worth of troops all by itself).
Nothing much happens, as we run out of units.
End of turn: 0 - 0.  :p

Victory points:
Iyanden : 2100
Imp. Guard : 1950

So, I won, but barely.

My thoughts:

- Spirit Warhosts are probably amongst the toughest formation, if not THE toughest formation on the game (RA4+, Fearless and Extra Attacks MW4+ are huge assets  :8): ).

- BUT, you have to get it in an Assault, otherwise you're wasting precious points. For this reason, I think Spirit Warhosts in Wave Serpents are harder to use efficiently and generally not worth their salt. Using Vampires, Storm Serpents or a Wraithgate is much better IMO. That way, you can drop them in the middle of the enemy lines where, frankly, they rule!  :alien:

- I have read concerns about the power level of the army, and it's true that Spirit Warhosts are a fearful thing. While this is true, you HAVE to buy them a transport, otherwise your 350-point monster unit is almost useless. So a Spirit Warhost is really worth either :
  * 650 points (if using Wave Serpents)
  * 600 points (if using Storm Serpent)
  * 550 points (if using Vampire Raider)
  * 400 points (if using Wraithgate, in which case it is limited to assaults in the vicinity of the Wraithgate)

These high costs mean that you get less activations. That said, I still think it's a bit cheap at 350 points. But only just a bit : I'd vote for upping its cost to 375 points.

That's it. I you need more details from the battle itself, just ask and I'll try my best to answer.


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 Post subject: BatRep - Iyanden vs. Guard
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 5:33 am 
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Quote (Hojyn @ 22 Dec. 2005 (16:36))
That's it. I you need more details from the battle itself, just ask and I'll try my best to answer.

How do you think the Wraithseer did for it's points? That's another concern for me. I'm also humoring the idea of a 4 stand Spirit host but then I think the whole size of a Wraithguard upgrade would also have to be reconsidered because of size comparison. Or even a 4-6 stand host size (and errata Vampires as carrying 4 stands of Wraithguard).

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 Post subject: BatRep - Iyanden vs. Guard
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 10:52 am 
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Quote (MC23 @ 23 Dec. 2005 (04:33))
How do you think the Wraithseer did for it's points? That's another concern for me. I'm also humoring the idea of a 4 stand Spirit host but then I think the whole size of a Wraithguard upgrade would also have to be reconsidered because of size comparison. Or even a 4-6 stand host size (and errata Vampires as carrying 4 stands of Wraithguard).

- Wraithseer :

To be honest I don't think it's worth 100 points. Granted, I rolled two 1s in my first turn when trying to activate my Aspect Warriors (forgot to mention that in the Batrep), but apart from that, I didn't need his re-roll at all. Activating on 2+ is rather easy, and some units (Titans and AW) even have 1+, so the impact of a supreme commander is counterbalanced by the relative ease with which you can activate your units. At 75 points, or perhaps even 50, I'd consider him. At 100 points, he means one less activation on an already tight list, so I won't be using him again.

- Spirit Warhost (SW) size:

Reducing it to 4 stands (or even 4-6 stands) may be one solution, but I can see a few problems with that :

? * you'd have to reduce the cost, probably to 250 points (275?) or to 65 points (?) per stand, meaning more Spirit Warhosts, in turn meaning more "living" troops and more activations. As it is, I think the "Living Few" rule captures the essence of Iyanden quite well and gives it a unique character.

? * Would a 4 stand SW still pack enough punch to be worthwile, and more importantly, wouldn't it be too easy to break ?

? * Adding Warithlords can compensate that relative "frailty", but Wraithlords can't be transported except via webway portals, thus adding another limitation to the SW.

? * as you said, you'd have to errata the Vampire Raider in several ways to avoid abuses and/or (paradoxically) to make it more useful :
? ? ?- With 4 stands per SW, you could load a Vampire with 8 Wraithguard (instead of 6 now), and apart from a Warlord or a Great Gargant, I don't know what could survive an assault from such a formation.
? ? ?- Saying that each Wraithguard stand counts double in a Vampire would prevent that, but can we actually modify the Vampire's stats ?

So, having said this, here's a proposal that doesn't resort to errata:

1. Remove the Vampire Raider from the Aircraft section.

2. New Spirit Warhost entry:

Type - Eldar Spirit Warhost

Formation - An Eldar Spirit Warhost consists of 4 Wraithguard units and 1 Spirit Seer

Notes - The formation may include 2 Wraithlords for +125 points. In addition the whole formation may be mounted in a Vampire Raider for +200 points. Alternatively, the formation may be mounted in 4 Wave Serpents for +200 points. If this option is taken then the formation is not allowed to take any other upgrades.

Cost - 250 (275? 300?) points

That way we avoid the "8 Wraithguards air assault" problem and we give the Wraithlords some more flexibility (they cost a bit more for that reason). Even though the Vampire does not say it can transport Wraithlords, it probably can (1 WL = 2 regular infantry stands) and why wouldn't Iyanden armies do it?

What do you think? Bad idea?






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 Post subject: BatRep - Iyanden vs. Guard
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 11:40 pm 
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... but wouldn't your proposal mean that the SW-Formation would be the only one in an Iyanden army that could be transported in a Vampire? :80:


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 Post subject: BatRep - Iyanden vs. Guard
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 1:57 pm 
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Quote (snotgun @ 24 Dec. 2005 (22:40))
... but wouldn't your proposal mean that the SW-Formation would be the only one in an Iyanden army that could be transported in a Vampire? :80:

Yes it would...  :blush:

And I just realized it would also allow more aircraft/titans to be taken by removing the Vampire from the Aircraft allowance ( :blush:  again).

So, bad idea after all.  :p

I guees that MC23's idea makes the most sense, then : a 4-6 stand host size (with perhaps a slight points increase) and Vampires limited to 4 Wraithguards stands.

Something like this: (?)

Type - Eldar Spirit Warhost

Formation - An Eldar Spirit Warhost consists of 4 to 6 Wraithguard units and 1 Spirit Seer

Notes - The formation may include 3 Wraithlords for +175 points. Alternatively, all Wraithguard units may be transported in Wave Serpents. If you choose this option then you must take as many Wave Serpents as there are Wraithguard units, and the formation is not allowed to take any other upgrades. Each Wave Serpent taken costs +50 points.

Cost - 65 points (?) per Wraithguard unit.


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 Post subject: BatRep - Iyanden vs. Guard
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 2:07 am 
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Cool.  :cool:
I've started on working on my Eldar and can't wait until I've got them done to play as well.

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 Post subject: BatRep - Iyanden vs. Guard
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 9:17 pm 
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Hi all,

I'm planning on a new battle with my Iyanden army this week or next week, and I'd like to know what you think of the "4-6 stand Spirit Warhost".

Do you think this is the good thing to do for Iyanden? And if so, what should be the cost of such a formation (see 2 posts above for my suggestion)?

I'd very much like to try it in my next game, but I'd also like to hear what other, more experienced players have to say on the subject.


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 Post subject: BatRep - Iyanden vs. Guard
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 11:12 am 
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Quote (Hojyn @ 02 Jan. 2006 (15:17))
I'd very much like to try it in my next game, but I'd also like to hear what other, more experienced players have to say on the subject.

I would very much like to see it tried so I can find out how much of an option it can be.

Try 250 points for the base host of 4 with Spirit Seer.

The thing is to find out if most importantly 4 stands is a playable formation. Points can be worked out later.

I can't move on from playing Ulthw? until I feel good about the new options. And there has been a bit of a dry EPIC spell around here. This has kept me from further progress on the other lists.

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 Post subject: BatRep - Iyanden vs. Guard
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:37 pm 
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OK, I'll try that.

I won't be able to play before Thursday next week, but here's my list anyway :

Spirit Warhost ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?250
Spirit Warhost ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?250
Spirit Warhost + 4 Wave Serpents 450
Spirit Warhost + 4 Wave Serpents 450
Guardians ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?150

Falcons (1 Firestorm) ? ? ? ? ? ? 250
Falcons (1 Firestorm) ? ? ? ? ? ? 250
Cobra ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?250

Vampire Raider ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 200
Vampire Raider ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 200
Nightwings ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 300

Total ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?3000


I'll be facing AMTL, hence the Falcons and Cobra. I think this army should have a pretty good chance against AMTL, with all the AT pulse fire and FFMW.

- The guardians are there to... guard the Blitz objective.

- Falcons should do a pretty good job of stripping the Titans bare (no shields), then the Cobra and/or the Spirit Warhosts will go in for the kill with TK fire and FFMW.

- Wave Serpents and Vampires should give me enough mobility to strike and redeploy easily.

- Nightwings will be used either to protect my Vampires and their precious cargo (if lots of flak) or to harass the enemy by placing BM where I need them.

Well, that's what I'll try to do, anyway... ?:p

On a side note, I'd like to include a Wraithseer... but as I said earlier, I think it's too expensive at 100 points. Any plans to change that, or am I the only one thinking it's too expensive?






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 Post subject: BatRep - Iyanden vs. Guard
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:09 am 
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Quote (Hojyn @ 04 Jan. 2006 (12:37))
OK, I'll try that.



On a side note, I'd like to include a Wraithseer... but as I said earlier, I think it's too expensive at 100 points. Any plans to change that, or am I the only one thinking it's too expensive?

I went high on the Wraithseer because of the strength of the 6 unit Spirit Host. Also it is easier IMO to deduce something is priced too high than too low. And there would be less resistance if the price dropped as opposed to raising it.

If 4 Wraithgurad as a host is playable then that can shift things a lot. Thanks for giving it a shot (especially at having them all at 4 strong).

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 Post subject: BatRep - Iyanden vs. Guard
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:40 am 
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Quote (MC23 @ 05 Jan. 2006 (01:09))
I went high on the Wraithseer because of the strength of the 6 unit Spirit Host.



If 4 Wraithgurad as a host is playable then that can shift things a lot. Thanks for giving it a shot (especially at having them all at 4 strong).

No problem. :8):

Actually, I thought I might replace 1 Spirit Warhost + 4 WS with 1 Spirit Warhost + 3 Wraithlords. That way I'll have all the options in the same army and hopefully I'll see which one performs best. I'll also add a Wraithgate. That will put me at 3025 pts, but I'll allow my opponent to add 25 points to his army.

As for the Wraithseer, it's probably true that his efficiency depends a lot on the strength of the Spirit Warhost, and that we first need to determine how strong a Spirit Warhost before giving the WS a definite cost.


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