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"Restricted" Spirit Stones |
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MC23
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Post subject: "Restricted" Spirit Stones  Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:02 pm |
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Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:27 am
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There's been a bit of a hiatus here with EPIC but things are looking to start up again. When it does I've decided I will be playing with a more restricted Spirit Stones rule. The maximum number of formations that can benefit from Spirit Stones each turn will be limited by the number of formations (not units) with Farsight. I have always preferred that version of the rule and I'd like to have a reference incase the log term results indicate Spirit Stones was too powerful.
I am not encouraging everybody to do this because we definitely need to find out if the current Spirit Stones is too good like all the Eldar-phobes like to cry about. I'm still convinced at this time that the current rules are acceptably balanced (while advantaged to Eldar, the win ratio is within Jervis' 5% IIRC threshold of a 50/50 game). But I don' like how it feels when it plays as well as the reactions my opponents have to it. Anybody else in the same boat as me can give this a try.
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yme-loc
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Post subject: "Restricted" Spirit Stones Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:39 pm |
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Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 4:58 pm
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I'm certainly not an eldar phobe, I use them almost exclusively (along with orks occasionally) in epic40k.
I would also say that I agree with you when it comes to the balance of the Biel-Tan list, that is to say that it is actually quite well balanced.
However I certainly think that Spirit stones do push it a little bit high on the power curve and were not needed (their also very unfluffy in terms of game effect - but thats just my personal opinion).
In truth a completely balanced eldar list could be achieved very easily with the following changes.
Drop or reduce in power the effect of Spirit Stones
Revenants 675 - 700pts
Falcons 275pts
Wraithguard upgrade 175pts
Phoenix Bombers 375pts
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Tiny-Tim
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Post subject: "Restricted" Spirit Stones Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 5:38 pm |
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Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:32 pm
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Location: North Yorkshire
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Spirit Stones restricted to formations with Farsight?
I feel that we might as well drop the rule all together. IIRC the rule was introduced because people were complaining that they were suffering from 'third turn wilt' where they had the majority of their formaitons broken. This was particularly felt with small formations such as Fire Prisms.
To repeat myself I am of the opinion that the change in the rule is not required. We should just delete it.
Tiny
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MC23
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Post subject: "Restricted" Spirit Stones Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 2:28 am |
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| Quote (Tiny-Tim @ 11 Nov. 2005 (11:38)) | Spirit Stones restricted to formations with Farsight?
Tiny |
No, because that would basically just be Leader. No, any valid formation could benefit but sum total of these formations that can is limited. So if you had 3 Formations that contained Farsight ability, then up to 3 formations that rally can benefit from their Spirit Stones. So it is still more along the lines of a transferable Leader.
For some reason I can never seem to sum up this simple concept in simple directions. I tried a slightly more restrictive version of this concept in early playtest times but writing the rules was more complicated than actually using it.
Anyway my experience has been the Eldar only ever needed a slight nudge and by just removing 2-4 extra Blast markers per turn hit that mark for my games. I also liked the subtleties of choosing where the benefit should be played (and the Eldar's game play should always be about subtleties, IMO).
I just consider this a personal handicap in how I apply Spirit Stones. My friends are less irritated by the Eldar's end phase and I am happier with my personal results. That alone is enough for me to use it. My friends and I might like to have very competitive games but we like to enjoy all of the game (providing the dice don't completely give out for one of us). Spirit Stones have been a slight detraction for us in game play (but not necessarily anything notices in game balance).
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Steele
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Post subject: "Restricted" Spirit Stones Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 9:01 am |
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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:40 am
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Location: Duisburg , Germany
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I never understood why this Rule is there. How can there be the time to collect them in the middle of a Battle? Or how has it to be interpreted? Although the Rule tries to explain , it shouldn?t work. Give them another Reason why it works then it might be OK. Nevertheless, the Rule doesn?t impact my Games too far. As I tend to play them very offensively, I?m glad to remove that extra BM. Maybe I would play them a bit lesser harsh if the rule is skipped, but thats all. The same way we could discuss TSKNF, although being balanced , it annoys me every time I play against Marines, I tend to forget about this special Rule way too often, same for the Spirit Stones - when Rallying there might remain one or two BM?s and when I forget about Spirit Stones, OK, I Marshall, I can live with it and without it. After all, I want fun.
Cheers!
Steele
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Tiny-Tim
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Post subject: "Restricted" Spirit Stones Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:47 am |
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Location: North Yorkshire
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Ok, I see the difference.
I believe that we will just be creating another version of the rule to annoy other players. It will change the way that I would look at the rallying phase as you would probably start with the formations that need the bonus and if they fail then use the benefit on a later formation. So should you declare before rolling for rally that you are using spirit stones.
Tiny
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MC23
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Post subject: "Restricted" Spirit Stones Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:14 am |
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Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:27 am
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| Quote (Tiny-Tim @ 14 Nov. 2005 (03:47)) | Ok, I see the difference.
I believe that we will just be creating another version of the rule to annoy other players. It will change the way that I would look at the rallying phase as you would probably start with the formations that need the bonus and if they fail then use the benefit on a later formation. So should you declare before rolling for rally that you are using spirit stones.
Tiny |
My previous experience with trying something like this (there were a couple of variations of this I've tried before) had me removing Blast markers after all my rallying rolls. When I did that I had the effect and balance I was looking for. Going by that I'd say it would not need further restrictions on how they are applied.
If anybody is interested in this (so far it seems not), I'll try to better explain it while I sit down going over the Eldar sub-lists I'm working on.
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Tiny-Tim
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Post subject: "Restricted" Spirit Stones Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:37 pm |
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Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:32 pm
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Location: North Yorkshire
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Simple question with an obvious answer. When my farseer has been killed my formation loses farsight and I lose this benefit? Yes.
I have enough problems trying to protect my farseers at the moment. People seem to be worried about a Daemon turning up and disrupting their plans or something. We are going to get more Snipers involved in the game.
Might not be a bad idea 
Tiny.
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Tepoc
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Post subject: "Restricted" Spirit Stones Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:25 pm |
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Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2003 2:25 am
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I too have always liked the linking of the spirit stones rule to the number of farseers. It makes the Guardian formation something to be taken for another reason than as an Avatar portal.
Cheers!
Tepoc
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nealhunt
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Post subject: "Restricted" Spirit Stones Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:29 pm |
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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
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Location: Nashville, TN, USA
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I don't so much have a problem with spirit stones per se. After all, the Eldar should be pretty darn good at command and control. The real issue is that it was put in at the same time points were tweaked and there was very little time to test the new combo for overall effectiveness.
I would be fine with the rule itself if I thought the point values accurately reflected it.
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