Ulthw? Black Guardians (back to the drawing board) |
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Tiny-Tim
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Post subject: Ulthw? Black Guardians (back to the drawing board)  Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:26 am |
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I don't know I take my eye off Ulthwe for a week to go on holiday and look what happens. 
Well if we are going to start from scratch again here are a few comments. MC23's new proposal for the BG hosts will completely reck my proposals for next year's tournament list. Well I suppose if I was going to use two BG hosts with wraithguard and lords then its likely that the formation might be a little bit on the good side.
However, from my power-gamer's point of view I think that I would just take the risk and not play with BG to allow my main strike formations to still include wraith constructs.
Tim
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MC23
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Post subject: Ulthw? Black Guardians (back to the drawing board) Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:37 am |
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Started updating the list to submit back for playtesting. I think I should re-write the entire Black Guardian special rule. Here goes;
Ulthw?'s need for long standing Guardian hosts have lead to veteran Guardian hosts. It is these veteran Guardians that has earned the reputation given to Ulthw? Black Guardians. Because of their rarity you may only have one Ulthw? Black Guardian Warhost for every three Warhost taken (round fractions up). Important Note: Ulthw? Black Guardians often have more elaborate markings to their armour which were added during their long use. They should be identifiably distinct in some fashion from the standard Guardians in the army. |
This could probably use some work but I think it better addresses things now.
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MC23
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Post subject: Ulthw? Black Guardians (back to the drawing board) Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:43 am |
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| Quote (nealhunt @ 15 2005 Aug.,09:24) | I think that formation looks perfectly reasonable. If anything, it's a bit of a tone-down with the wraith options removed.
Personally, I agree that you shouldn't mix in any bike/vyper units. |
I going to give it a try afterall (+1-3 @ 50 points each). I like the bikes working besides the Wave Serpents and Falcons and give the mounted UBG an extra punch (and more identity). It also answers the question of where are these veteran units. If it turns out to be too much they will get dropped, so adding them is still more of an experiment. I'd rather try it and know than wonder about what could have been.
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Chroma
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Post subject: Ulthw? Black Guardians (back to the drawing board) Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:58 pm |
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| Quote (MC23 @ 22 2005 Aug.,03:43) | | I going to give it a try afterall (+1-3 @ 50 points each). I like the bikes working besides the Wave Serpents and Falcons and give the mounted UBG an extra punch (and more identity). It also answers the question of where are these veteran units. If it turns out to be too much they will get dropped, so adding them is still more of an experiment. I'd rather try it and know than wonder about what could have been. |
I've been using Jetbikes/Vypers with mounted Black Guardians for my past several games; it gives a very "strike force" feel to the formation.
None of my opponents have complained about them and they've found them an interesting variation. As one said, "I'd rather face bikes than Wraithguard."
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MC23
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Post subject: Ulthw? Black Guardians (back to the drawing board) Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 4:28 pm |
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| Quote (MC23 @ 21 2005 Aug.,22:37) | | Started updating the list to submit back for playtesting. I think I should re-write the entire Black Guardian special rule. |
I guess I will introduce a limitation on the number of Aspects you can take. In the end, Ulthw? will always have less Aspects than the other Craftworlds (and this will help eliminate the perpetual attempts of creating an identical swordwind army like Biel-tan's). The a idea of limiting 1 Aspect Troupe per Host taken should still give plenty of troupes to be taken but not the amount possible with other armies. This shouldn't affect too many existing Ulthw? lists either.
The Path Less Traveled
Ulthw? has less followers of the Path of the Warrior than any other Craftworld. Because of this Ulthw? armies may only take 1 Aspect Troupe per Warhost taken. |
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MC23
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Post subject: Ulthw? Black Guardians (back to the drawing board) Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 12:40 pm |
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The updated list has been submitted.
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Post subject: Ulthw? Black Guardians (back to the drawing board) Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 4:55 pm |
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| Quote (MC23 @ 28 2005 Aug.,16:28) | The Path Less Traveled
Ulthw? has less followers of the Path of the Warrior than any other Craftworld. Because of this Ulthw? armies may only take 1 Aspect Troupe per Warhost taken. |
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Isn't the the 4-strong Aspect Troupe supposed to represent this scarcity? If we go to the 1 Aspect Troupe limit can/should we increase the Troupe size to the (unofficial) standard of six stands?
I don't think it's a matter of people making "Biel-Tan" armies out of the Ulthw? list, just that it seems odd that Ulthw? can get the same number of Aspect stands as Biel-Tan for the same point cost.
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MC23
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Post subject: Ulthw? Black Guardians (back to the drawing board) Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:10 pm |
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Point cost is solely based on game effect, not rarity. I will never support a list that alters point costs to influence army composition. Also since Ulthwe has the least followers of the Warrior Path, I could never see them being fielded as a 6 stand option. Besides the focus of Ulthwe is Guardians.
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Tiny-Tim
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Post subject: Ulthw? Black Guardians (back to the drawing board) Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:13 pm |
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Had a thought earlier today about BG. Why don?t we look at them in the same way that Space Wolves deal with Wolf Guard or what ever their veterans are called nowerdays.
One in three Guardian Warhosts may be a Black Guardian Warhost (as before) at 250pts for the basic formation.
Black Guardians are Initiative 1+ (as before).
8 Stands with two of them up-grading to Farseers for free if wanted.
Same stats as before but give them +1 Extra Small Arms attack (this makes them as good as Dire Avengers but with no save)
The only other Up-Grade allowed being Wave Serpents ? 4 No. for 200pts.
Now for the interesting bit. A Black Guardian Warhost may be evenly divided between two existing Guardian Warhosts, with the cost of the Black Guardian Warhost being added to the existing Guardian Hosts. The Guardian formation, which is boosted by the Black Guardians remains at Initiative 2+. The Troupes, which would normally be, generated by the Black Guardian Warhost are lost if this option is taken.
So for example I have two normal Guardian Warhosts, one mounted in Wave Serpents at 350pts and one upgraded with Wraithguard, 300pts. I have a third Guardian Warhost who are Black Guardians mounted in Wave Serpents, 450pts.
I could leave all three as they are and have nine possible troupe choices or I can merge the Black Guardians in to the two Normal Guardian hosts and have six troupe choices.
The merged formations would then be 1 Farseer, 7 Guardians and 4 Wave Serpents PLUS 4 Black Guardians (1 of which could be a Farseer) and 2 Wave Serpents at 350 + 225 = 575pts
& 1 Farseer, 7 Guardians and 3 Wraithguard PLUS 4 Black Guardians (1 of which could be a Farseer) and 2 Wave Serpents at 300 + 225 = 525pts
I think that we would see the straight Black Guardians being merged with the foot troops move than the more expensive ?with Wave Serpent? option.
There would also have to be a bigger than before call for differences between normal and Black Guardians, might I suggest different base shapes, 40x10 & 20x20 bases.
Further restrictions could also be imposed on merging the formations that a Guardian formation with Wraith Constructs can not be merged with half a Black Guardian formation, but I personally think that the cost would be too much anyway (150 + 150 + 175 + 125 = 600pts). Although it would be an 18 unit strong formation, with a ridiculous number of attacks in an engagement (28 if they were perfectly placed).
Well digest and enjoy
Tim
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