Ulthw? Black Guardians (back to the drawing board) |
|
MC23
|
Post subject: Ulthw? Black Guardians (back to the drawing board)  Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:15 am |
|
| Brood Brother |
 |
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:27 am
Posts: 174
|
|
If we were to give Black Guardians it's own entry (instead of having it shared with regular Guardians) what changes would you like to see done?
There's the option of making the second Farseer mandatory (not sure I like that idea). We don't have to take all the regular Guardians options (I'm in favor of dropping Wraithguard and Wraithlords out). We could now consider the option of replacing 1 or 2 Wave Serpents with 2 or 4 Falcons (respectively). We could add other options (I love playing around with adding War Walkers to different formations but I just love those models).
And just in case somebody might think about it, Black Guardians Windriders will not come back as an option. They were just too good and overshadowed regular Guardians.
_________________
I am MC23
|
|
| Top |
|
 |
|
Chroma
|
Post subject: Ulthw? Black Guardians (back to the drawing board) Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:59 am |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
 |
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada
|
|
Reading that up there, I came to a sad conclusion... maybe it's the Wraith-units that are making the Black Guardians too powerful. I love having them in the formation, but maybe it's too much. *sigh*
As too suggestions, I've got a question: *When* in Ulthwe's history is this army taking place?
Could we base the Black Guardian Unit around the "Strike Force" concept? Perhaps allowing the addition of three War Walkers (I love the model too!) and three Jetbike/Vyper units? That way we don't have the overpowering Black Guardian Jetbikes zipping around on their own, but they still exist and it can all come out of a Portal!
_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer
Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Reaversbane
|
Post subject: Ulthw? Black Guardians (back to the drawing board) Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:40 am |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:13 pm
Posts: 283
Location: North Wales, UK
|
>Black Guardians Windriders will not come back as an option.
Fair enough. It certainly isnt something I will argue. The few games I used that rule the list I used would hae done Saim-Hann proud 
I quite like the idea of giving them the option of jetbikes, vypers and warwalkers, especially as it slots in the 'strike force' stuff quite neatly, but doesnt have the above ideas impact. As much as I like the Wraith constructs in my Black Guardian formations I think I can accept that its a reasonable change.
Im actually quite looking forward to playtesting this...
_________________
Reaversbane (or RB for short...)
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Random
|
Post subject: Ulthw? Black Guardians (back to the drawing board) Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:09 am |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:04 pm
Posts: 11
|
|
The only thing I could think off would be to make to make black guardians different would be to do the following:
Black Guardian Strike Force
1 Farseer 5 Black Guardians
may add to 2 Dark Reapers
Notes: Strike Forces May teleport
The idea being that iduring the eye of terror Ultwe restructured a lot of its black guardians into strike teams under the guidence of Morgan Rar(thus the formation may include 2 Dark reapers. They would appear using the smallist of small webway exits to attack suddenly from no where.
The other take I had of a strike team was structure as above(maybe more options) but no teleport. However add a strike gate webportal on to Ultwe farseers. The portal only allows strike team formations to move through it in the same way a wraithgate is restricted to inf, etc.
The question is do people what them to fill the same role as the normal guardian host?
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Reaversbane
|
Post subject: Ulthw? Black Guardians (back to the drawing board) Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:15 am |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:13 pm
Posts: 283
Location: North Wales, UK
|
|
I think it should possibly be more 'overall generic' than actually looking at the strike force bit directly. For instance, the Dark Reaper thing was pretty specific to Eye Of Terror, and while in theory Ulthwe may well appear in an Eye Of Terror ebook (possibly?), if you tie the list that closely to it it may be a bit limiting. I would prefer it as more of a subtle nod to the strike force bit, but not driven by the way they work.
The ideas of almost spitting the army in half, with the normal guardians and their supporting troupes in one half, and the black guardian on the other with no supporting troupes. Maybe not a popular idea (the lack of support troupes), but it would mean you wouldnt need to restrict the number of black guardians, as players wouldn't get any troupes if they only had Black Guardians, but you would still have the option on an etirely BG force, a la strike force. That make sense? Instead of the flexibility of supporting troupes, the black guardain hosts would have more options (vypers, jetbikes, war walkers), and be more flexible in their battlefield role.
Just an idea...
_________________
Reaversbane (or RB for short...)
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
MC23
|
Post subject: Ulthw? Black Guardians (back to the drawing board) Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:48 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:27 am
Posts: 174
|
| Quote (Chroma @ 11 2005 Aug.,19:59) | | As too suggestions, I've got a question: *When* in Ulthwe's history is this army taking place? |
This came up before and the answer is that the EPIC army lists are non-time specific. So things like the Spear of Khaine and an Ulthw? Strike Force which are formations exclusive to the 13th crusade are not used.
Some thoughts I've further had about Ulthw? Strike Forces are this. During the 13th crusade Ulthw? was fighting as limited Strike Forces, which large scale and dedicated army movements rare (if they really happened at). So Ulthw? as a solid army (in EPIC scale) didn't really exist. If USF was presented in EPIC they would much be only 1 warhost that would behave more like the Avatar (placed for 1 turn and that's it). If such a force could even be considered fairly costed then they could appear in any non-Ulthw? army (their point cost should probably come out of Titans / Air Power restricted points or something similar).
_________________
I am MC23
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Da Warboss
|
Post subject: Ulthw? Black Guardians (back to the drawing board) Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:26 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 3:11 pm
Posts: 28
Location: Tennessee
|
|
What about storm guardians?
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
nealhunt
|
Post subject: Ulthw? Black Guardians (back to the drawing board) Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 4:00 pm |
|
| Purestrain |
 |
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
|
|
I posted in the other thread, but just to reiterate:
The current BG options are fine. The suggestion for a separate entry was strictly editorial to make it easier to follow.
_________________
Neal
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
MC23
|
Post subject: Ulthw? Black Guardians (back to the drawing board) Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 4:19 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:27 am
Posts: 174
|
| Quote (nealhunt @ 12 2005 Aug.,11:00) | I posted in the other thread, but just to reiterate:
The current BG options are fine. The suggestion for a separate entry was strictly editorial to make it easier to follow. |
Understood but given the Black Guardians their own entry it gives us a perfect opportunity to review their structure. And their point value is also being called into question and how Black Guardians have been used to date at the same time. I think it is time go back to the drawing board on this formation.
When BG were just a Guardian upgrade you were mostly working within the Guardian structure. Now that they are removed (even for just editorial reasons), being a tied to that same structure is now longer important and in fact I find it detremental to their identity following that.
Black Guardians should have their own identity fitting their background while also giving them a chance to have a unique identity from the standard Guardians in EPIC as well.
_________________
I am MC23
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
MC23
|
Post subject: Ulthw? Black Guardians (back to the drawing board) Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 4:40 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:27 am
Posts: 174
|
|
1 out of 3 Warhosts may be Ulthw? Black Guardian Warhosts
ULTHW? BLACK GUARDIAN WARHOST: 200 points
An Ulthw? Black Guardian Warhost consists of two Farseer units and six Guardian units. Up to three Guardians may be replaced with Heavy Weapon Platforms at no additional cost in points. In addition the formation may include these upgrades:
3 Support Weapon Platforms for +50 points
3 War Walker units for +100 points
Alternatively, formations consisting only of Guardians, Farseers, and Seer Council may be mounted in four Wave Serpents for +200 points. Up to two Wave Serpents may be replaced with two Falcons each at an additional cost of +75 points.
_________________
I am MC23
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
MC23
|
Post subject: Ulthw? Black Guardians (back to the drawing board) Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 5:03 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:27 am
Posts: 174
|
|
That's my current thoughts. The price issue in question is handled through two things, the suggested increase points increase and the second Farseer becoming mandatory (he was probably always worth close to 50 points but not the psychology of paying 50 points for him). So a stripped down Black Guardian host is physically starting to differ from a stripped down Guardian host (and it also starts helping identify the formations apart which is better than a paint job requirement).
All the wraith units have been removed because the seem to be the source of the point problems and is an unintended choice of play. Only Ulthw?'s Guardians are of veteran ability (along with more numerous Farseers and Warlocks) but not their spirit warriors (or their ability to focus them like Iyanden). War Walkers (besides being models I have always loved) were added because the are piloted by Guardians and therefore candidates for a veteran status (as well as replacing some of the optional firepower lost by removing the spirit warriors).
Now while I concede that there should be veteran Jetbikes and Vypers I'm not happy with ways of having them at this time. Their inclusion before as veteran swordwind was too good and I don't want to have 2 Initiative version Windriders. The only possible thing I could consider is adding up to 3 Jetbikes or Vypers to mounted BG hosts (say 50 points each?).
_________________
I am MC23
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Random
|
Post subject: Ulthw? Black Guardians (back to the drawing board) Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:28 am |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:04 pm
Posts: 11
|
|
I like the your new black guardian host MC23, the option of adding jetbikes and vypers would be very usefull if the formation had waveserpents, if not just looking cool. The LV status of the Vypers would allow the serpents some protection and the jetbikes can be used in an assualt to protect the guardians and serpents. 100 points for 3 vypers or jetbikes would be good.
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
nealhunt
|
Post subject: Ulthw? Black Guardians (back to the drawing board) Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 2:24 pm |
|
| Purestrain |
|
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
|
|
I think that formation looks perfectly reasonable. If anything, it's a bit of a tone-down with the wraith options removed.
Personally, I agree that you shouldn't mix in any bike/vyper units.
_________________
Neal
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Chroma
|
Post subject: Ulthw? Black Guardians (back to the drawing board) Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 3:01 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
|
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada
|
|
Here's what I thought up over the weekend, let me know what you think! I included the Dark Reapers option just to allow for Eye of Terror goodness, they aren't really necessary though.
BLACK GUARDIAN WARHOST: 175 points
A Black Warhost consists of one Farseer unit and seven Guardian units.
Black Guardian Warhosts may replace one Guardian units for one additional Farseer at an additional cost of +25 points.
Choose one of the following option packages:
Black Guardian Defender Host
Up to three Guardians may be replaced with Heavy Weapon Platforms at no additional cost in points.
In addition the formation may include:
3 Support Weapon Platforms for +50 points
Up to 3 Warwalker units for +25 points each
2 Dark Reaper Units for +50 points
Black Guardian Storm Host
Mounted in four Wave Serpents for +200 points
Up to two the Wave Serpents may be replace by a pair of Falcons each at an additional cost of +75 points per Wave Serpent replaced
In addition the formation may include:
Up to 3 Elder Jetbikes and/or Vypers in any combination for +25 points each
2 Dark Reaper Units mounted in 1 Wave Serpent for +100 points
_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer
Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Chroma
|
Post subject: Ulthw? Black Guardians (back to the drawing board) Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 3:04 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
|
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada
|
|
Alternatively for the Storm Host, to keep its bulk down:
Black Guardian Storm Host
Mounted in four Wave Serpents for +200 points
Up to two the Wave Serpents may be replace by a pair of Falcons each at an additional cost of +75 points per Wave Serpent replaced
2 Guardian Units and Wave Serpent may be replace with 3 Elder Jetbikes and/or Vypers in any combination at no additional cost
2 Dark Reaper Units mounted in 1 Wave Serpent for +100 points
_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer
Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?
|
|
| Top |
|
|
